Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Not sure what it is about flowers that brought out such extremes this thread, but...wow.

As someone from the Netherlands and pro-EU, this kind of thinking is not helpful at all. My knee-jerk response to this statement is to say something like:

We have been saying that to Spain and Italy for years. Spain and Italy have been violating the stability pact for years, during the best economic times. And now, when the crisis hits, they want to use our money, the money we saved by increasing retirement age, increasing taxes, and cutting costs. Money that we really need to stimulate our own economy.

But that would just lead to more arguing which is not going to help anyone. What I will say is that the Dutch government immediately offered help, but offered it in donations and through the Emergency Stability Mechanism, which is precisely what was agreed upon previously. This help comes with conditions to make sure that Italy and Spain do not become dependent on Dutch support, but can actually take care of themselves in the future.

To say that means that 'The Netherlands' (as if everyone in the Netherlands, especially the people in the flower business is represented by our government) didn't care about people dying is an insult to the people hit by this.

Seems like quite a leap from "not wanting to subsidize other countries with Dutch tax payers money" to "not caring about people dying".

Under normal conditions I agree, but when dealing with a pandemic the gap is not really that big.

You should take back the part where you accuse an entire nation of not caring about people dying. It's unbecoming.

The Dutch just don't want mutualisation of debt. That's not strange at all.

In the end, the Dutch will have to deal with the mutualisation of dept if they choose to stay in the Eurozone. I believe it's pretty much unavoidable as both Germany and France seem to already have agreed on the matter:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/29/how-to-star...

'The Dutch' didn't say that. Some Dutch people did.

Sure, that should really say the Dutch government - edited to say so, but the point stands - you should not generalise about entire nations being profligate, and you should not scapegoat certain groups of people as deserving of suffering.

The EU should be about solidarity, which includes economic solidarity. At its best it has pulled nations like Spain and Portugal from the brink of financial ruin after war/dictatorship to thriving democracies. At its worst it has consigned entire nations to collective punishment (Greece) just to play to domestic audiences in certain countries.

It's usually wrong to stigmatise groups as deserving of suffering and it is not in anybody's interest to do so.

Not really. The response from the Dutch government was that they did want to help, but did not want to hold the responsibility for paying back the loan from the countries. Which would have been the case with Eurobonds.

Instead, they wanted to help but had some financial reform obligations tied to it, which Italy and Spain were not happy with.

Not really.

"Mr Hoekstra also infuriated some of his finance minister colleagues this week when he suggested that Brussels “investigate” why some economies did not have the fiscal headway to fight a downturn — a veiled dig at Italy and others for failing to reform in benign times. An EU diplomat quoted by Volkskrant described the slight as a “middle finger to the south”."

How about trying to answer this question? Why is it that the state of Italy has so much problems with their budget?

This is not the first time it has been a problem.

edit: I am Dutch btw, how about you?

They are angry of course but is Mr. Hoekstra wrong factually or even arguably morally?

The idea of solidarity in crisis is that you circle the wagons and protect the vulnerable. Every man for himself is usualy a net loss for everyone.