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Re:How Tech Can Build by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @12:21PM (#22936370)
This is so very, very wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence

"Chesterton's fence is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood."

What you've written is an all-too typical complaint of people who don't bother to understand the history of our existing legal, political and social structures. It's easy to hand wave and vent about "regulatory capture" (I do it all the time).

But go and dig down and find out why that 2+ parking space rule exists. You will find a massively more complex, and much more pro-public, pro-people, pro-progress agenda in play than anything you just wrote suggests.

I remember an example of this sort of thing that I came across in eastern WA about 20+ years ago. A small town there was facing protests because it was about to put down ("execute") several wild horses that were hanging about the town. The law was very clear about what had to be done, but the public, both in town and elsewhere in the state were aghast. The horses were healthy, beautiful and there seemed to be no good justification for killing the as the law required. People complained about the law being an ass (no pun intended) and said that this was the perfect example of government inflexibility and law making by people with selfish interests.

But all it took was a little history detour to go back and find out why the law(s) in question had come into being. It had indeed been the case that in the not too distant past (by global standards, not necessarily those of the western US), wild horses had indeed been a problem in town, and that the towns people had tried several approaches to dealing with and/or fixing the problems. None of them had been very successful, and some 80 years earlier, the town had reluctantly adopted a law where an unowned horse, if not claimed by anyone within a reasonable period of notice, must be put down.

This wasn't government inflexibility, or stupid law, or selfish interests: it was a community improvising to deal with a tricky situation, and doing so imperfectly. Improving this particular law, and others like it (such as your 2+ parking space case) isn't going to happen by assuming that the existing legal framework exists because of malintent. It's going to happen by carefully understanding the context and motivations and knowledge that led to the current laws, and only then setting out change them, hopefully for the better.

Re:How Tech Can Build by BurningFrog on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:55PM (#22938137)
> * But go and dig down and find out why that 2+ parking space rule exists. You will find...*

It's easy to find what arguments people gave for instituting a rule.

That is often different from the real reason it was enacted or is kept around.

There is always a nice sounding argument for even the most blatantly unfair rule. Normally, due to Motivated Reasoning, the people benefitting from them even honestly believes the arguments!

Re:How Tech Can Build by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:27PM (#22939001)
Chesterton's Fence doesn't require that you perform a merely superficial analysis of why things are as they are, and indeed it would be doing the idea a disservice to do so.

As I noted in another reply below, I think it's fine to make the argument that the 2+ parking place rule comes from zoning policies that are ultimately racist, and that if you can show that this is really the sole origin of the rule, you've cleared "the fence" and can start to meangingully propose alternatives.

But such a historically-aware analysis is a far cry from "too much government regulation ... regulatory capture ... wah!"

Re:How Tech Can Build by dantheman on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:36PM (#22939064)
There is clearly too much government and there is regulatory capture - are you saying these aren't true? Just because some regulation is deemed good doens't mean the majority is.

There is a bias that the present and recent history is how things are and should be and that any changes require superior proof than the initial experiment in passing the legislation.

Re:How Tech Can Build by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @06:45PM (#22940125)
I understand that you might think there is too much government, but it's far from clear that this is so.

I think the USA could benefit from "more government", but even saying that is woefully ambiguous. What does "less government" or "more government" even mean? Less laws? More government workers? Too much spending?

Regulatory capture is indeed a problem, but it's not unique to the USA and there's no point pretending that it's unsolvable.

Re:How Tech Can Build by BurningFrog on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @08:22PM (#22940748)
Thinking of the issue as "too much" vs "too little" presumes government quality is a one dimensional thing.

Reality is far, far more complex and interesting than that!

Re:How Tech Can Build by ryder9 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @07:33PM (#22940441)
>There is clearly too much government

and you're just declaring those based on feelings? or something you saw on fox news?

Re:How Tech Can Build by vntok on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:38PM (#22937232)
> This wasn't government inflexibility, or stupid law, or selfish interests: it was a community improvising to deal with a tricky situation, and doing so imperfectly.

Improvising law and doing so imperfectly seems like a textbook recipe for "stupid law". That particular stupid law was worth complaining about "the law being an ass" (because it obviously was) and "the perfect example of government inflexibility" (local gov goes forward with putting down blameless horses based on an obscure law enacted 80 years ago in response to a situation that is nowhere near prevalent nor relevant today)

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but in light of this I'm curious how that specific example helps your argument?

Re:How Tech Can Build by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:18PM (#22938917)
So your proposal is that the government can just choose in the moment which laws to enforce and not enforce, based on current conditions and the leanings/predilictions of its current members?

The right thing to do do in the horse case would have been to repeal the law, since for sure, it no longer really applied. By contrast, the call from the public was "this is just another example of excessive government regulation", which is an entirely different claim.

But do you really want to argue for "oh, no problem, the police/courts can just ignore that statute because its clear to everyone that the original conditions that led to it no longer apply?" Really?

Re:How Tech Can Build by dantheman on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:34PM (#22939054)
The 2 parking space rule is because we allow people to park on the street overnight. It's very simple to just not allow that or if it's allowed, then charge a market rate for the space. If people want parking then the house can have it, or there can be a garage. The problem is that they're getting a public good for free - free on street overnight parking.
Re:How Tech Can Build by masonic on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @05:13AM (#22943619)

  we allow people to park on the street overnight. It's very simple to just not allow that
You can limit parking hours, but you generally can't limit residents from parking more restrictively than visitors.
Re:How Tech Can Build by dantheman on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @12:45PM (#22947509)
Completely agree, you just say parking is only for 4 hours or 8 hours, hell 12 hours.
Re:How Tech Can Build by wbl on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @03:29PM (#22938484)
The parking space rule exists so black people can't move into cheap apartments that would exist without it.
Re:How Tech Can Build by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:23PM (#22938963)
Assuming this to be true (though see my reply about zoning below - I think this is an incomplete answer), then that's great, you have now cleared Chesterton's Fence, and are in a position to propose a replacement.

But notice how utterly different your argument is to the OP, who talked about excessive government regulation, regulatory capture and so on.

(and yes, one can make a case that codification of racism in law statutes is a kind of regulatory capture, but it's really not what most people mean when they use that term)

Re:How Tech Can Build by gamblor956 on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @09:12PM (#22941037)
As large apartment buildings pre-date zoning regulations, parking space requirements, and in older East Coast cities even cars, that assertion is clearly false...
Re:How Tech Can Build by moultano on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @01:32PM (#22937142)
> It's going to happen by carefully understanding the context and motivations and knowledge that led to the current laws, and only then setting out change them, hopefully for the better.

If you go case by case through all the nonsensical things in the american legal system, you'll find most of the time that the reason they were put in place originally was racism. Zoning is a prime example.

Re:How Tech Can Build by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @04:20PM (#22938932)
Zoning for single family housing is definitely (at least in substantial part) rooted in racism (although I think you can make a case for it to be more expansively classism ... but sure, whatever).

However, racism doesn't require 2+ parking spaces, just single family dwellings that cost more than poor people can afford.

Re:How Tech Can Build by 1cvmask on Tuesday April 21, 2020 @02:37PM (#22937941)
Marx based a lot of his theories on classical economics. Ibn Khaldun was arguably the founder of modern economic theory. One of his observations of late stage societies is that they are riddled with large government expenditure and high taxation stifling the economic activity of society.

https://qz.com/1008371/an-arab-thinker-invented-economic-the...

https://evonomics.com/amazing-north-african-scholar-beat-ada...

Ronald Reagan quoting Ibn Khaldun on his views on tax rates:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KETIOgYu5uc