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Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by ahnick on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:28PM (#22909317)
Why does TFP always grow? Is the fundamental reasoning that new technologies and efficiency improvements in existing technologies will always occur over time and therefore guarantees this growth?
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by dodobirdlord on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:40PM (#22909452)
Essentially yes. Technology improvements (for a very, very broad definition of technology that includes things like Rights) are the only way that wealth is actually created. Everything else is just assets moving along a value curve in time.
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by nerfhammer on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:32PM (#22909365)
people are smart and slowly inevitably figure out ways to do things more efficiently
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by stouset on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:42PM (#22909470)
And this does not and cannot continue indefinitely.
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by edanm on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:00PM (#22910621)
Yes, but we don't know if the limit will be reached in 10 years or 10 billion years.

And while there might certainly be material problems in the future, in terms of "coming up with new ideas", I think we're nowhere near the limit.

Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by airstrike on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:50PM (#22911007)
"Indefinitely for all given purposes" is better than "technically indefinitely till the end of times"
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by nerfhammer on Saturday April 18, 2020 @02:19PM (#22909823)
what do you mean, do you think over time people are going to stop being clever?
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by sudosysgen on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:20PM (#22910328)
Eventually, all the clever innovations will either have smaller and smaller impacts, or will be impossible to implement due to material restrictions. Exponential, infinite growth can not be sustainable.
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by jimbokun on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:58PM (#22910608)
I mean, once you have a Dyson sphere, sure.

We have a ways to go before then.

Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by sudosysgen on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:23PM (#22910799)
Sure, but even beforethen growth will slow down very very significantly, and might go to zero for some for significant periods. Just building a Dyson sphere would probably take a few millenia.
Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by fastball on Saturday April 18, 2020 @07:11PM (#22911903)
You're assuming we don't make any fundamental discoveries in various fields that allow for an exponential number of new technologies based on those discoveries.

This seems short-sighted, as we've been doing that for most of human history, and honestly I don't think we're very close to unveiling all the mysteries of the universe.

We could start building a Dyson sphere right now. It would just take a long, long, long time given our current understanding of physics and technology. Imagine all the things we might be able to achieve with our understanding of physics in 300 years. Imagine the thing we will discover that will have their own Dyson-sphere equivalents. i.e. things we discover that we know (hypothetically) how do do, they are just not quite in our grasp.

Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by sudosysgen on Saturday April 18, 2020 @08:44PM (#22912422)
No, I'm projecting it would take millenia even if we start multiple hundreds of years in the future. We absolutely could not even start building a Dyson sphere today, the material constraints are far beyond anything we are capable of.

The reason why I'm saying it would take in the thousands of years, is because of this tautology: If we want to build a Dyson sphere, it means that we are still limited to the energy we can get from Earth. Given the issues that come with extracting a large percentage of the energy received by the Earth, even if we used fusion (due to thermodynamic constraints), the limit of energy used can be placed around 5-10% of the energy Earth receives from the Sun (And that would require extensive geo-engineering). With that sort of energy output, the energy alone required in order to move the material needed for a Dyson sphere from Earth orbit to Sun orbit would take literally millenia, and that's with a combined effort from all of Mankind, which politically completely impossible for the next centuries unless China or some other superpower was able to magically establish true utopic statless communism and win away the rest of the world to establish a world cooperation of sunshine and rainbows magically.

A Dyson sphere would weight around the mass of the Earth. The Hohmann transfer from Earth to Mercury (fly-bys cannot work due the sheer mass knocking out other planets from their orbits, this is actually the magnitude of energy we're talking about). If we could magically make the material necessary appear from Earth gradually, d/v from earth surface to LEO then from LEO to Mercury's orbit or thereabouts via a Hohmann transfer is of around 15 000 m/s. If you take the good old kinetic energy formula, 1/2mv^2, you find that this would require a staggering amount of energy that would take millenia to amass.

Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by fastball on Saturday April 18, 2020 @09:42PM (#22912753)
So the actual logistics of starting work on a Dyson sphere wasn't really the point of my comment. My only point was that we could make a start, because we grasp the principles – surround the sun with a structure that can capture most of its energy output.

Contrast with the plentitude of natural things we presumably don't understand / know about (unlike the sun) and there is a lot of potential for the future.

That being said, for the construction of a sphere you would presumably not be shipping matter from earth. You'd be towing in matter from asteroid belts and such.

Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by sudosysgen on Sunday April 19, 2020 @12:46PM (#22917051)
Towing materials from asteroid belts would require almost as much energy, and you would need some sort of megastructure for processing.

What I'm telling you is that there are hard limits that mean that our growth must slow down. There is a hard limit to how much energy we can harness from the earth, and a hard limit for how fast we can avoid this. Progress will have to slow down, a society based on endless exponential growth at short-term significant rates is untenable.

Re:We've Built Cities We Can't Afford by klibertp on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:56PM (#22910593)
They might run out of things to be clever about, for example (that's assuming your belief in the people actually being clever holds - I have my doubts here.)