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Re:The Decline of Usability by rapind on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:44PM (#22904054)
Having rarely seen a VCR that wasn't flashing "12:00", I came to the conclusion that a clock was simply feature bloat.
Re:The Decline of Usability by kristopolous on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:57PM (#22904133)
One of the arguments, given in the Supreme Court, by Mr. Rogers, to permit the VCR to be legally owned (I know how crazy this is sounding but it's real) was to time shift programming ... which requires a functioning clock.

Fred Rogers, 1984: "I have always felt that with the advent of all of this new technology that allows people to tape the 'Neighborhood' off-the-air ... they then become much more active in the programming of their family’s television life. Very frankly, I am opposed to people being programmed by others. My whole approach in broadcasting has always been ‘You are an important person just the way you are. You can make healthy decisions’ ... I just feel that anything that allows a person to be more active in the control of his or her life, in a healthy way, is important."

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive....

There's definitely non-crazy ways of doing this ... but it requires what at first blush, would appear to be a complicated interface.

Re:The Decline of Usability by aspenmayer on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:34PM (#22904605)
Just when I thought I couldn’t be thankful enough to Fred Rogers for saving public television in America as he transformed what it could be, now I find out that he’s also pivotal in standing up for fair use rights and inadvertently supported the analog hole before the digital one was even invented to be closed. He truly was a person who stood up for his beliefs on behalf of the fellow person and an example of goodness in the world without pandering or compromise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole

Re:The Decline of Usability by hilbert42 on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:12PM (#22911133)
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive.... "

Ha, reading that link now one feels a delicious sense of irony. Imagine how Sony would react today seeing that it has become one of the biggest purveyors of video/movie content. ;-)

Re:The Decline of Usability by gowld on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:46PM (#22904654)
Time shifting doesn't require a clock, if you are home to start recording, but a clock helps with programmatic recording.
Re:The Decline of Usability by lmm on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:52PM (#22904957)
That's an extreme nitpick. The whole argument for time shifting is to be able to record something while you're not at home.
Re:The Decline of Usability by aspenmayer on Saturday April 18, 2020 @03:58AM (#22906082)
Let’s hear them out in the spirit of debate. I’m curious how this hypothetical VCR is programmed, what the remote and interface might look like. I might even like it, or at least want parts of it as concepts to integrate with other things that already exist. Could shake loose some ideas.

Honestly I don’t know why VCRs are so hard to program but all of the buttons can’t help. I might be getting old but the Roku remote seems about right as far as complexity in the device goes and I can see how a nice interface with relative timekeeping could do what you need without a clock per se. Inertial guidance for timekeeping? A self winding DVR?

Re:The Decline of Usability by Fr0styMatt88 on Saturday April 18, 2020 @07:27AM (#22906962)
I remember what setting the time on a VCR was like and it's interesting to think of all the assumed knowledge you actually need in order to have it seem intuitive.

Two things off the top of my head that I can think of: 1) knowing that a blinking number is indicating some kind of selection and more generally 2) seeing the UI as a glimpse into a larger abstract space that can be navigated. Or in other words, having used computers for many years, what my parents sawzl as just a blinking word, I would see as a menu where up/down/left/right had meaning.

There's also some more abstract thinking involved there - for me it's very spatial so I think of it as being able to keep track of your place in this 'abstract map'. You had to learn some non-obvious things like "if the down button stops working, it probably means I'm at the 'bottom' of my available choices" or "if I start seeing the same choices again, it means I have 'wrapped around' and in a logical sense I'm back to where I've been before".

I actually remember thinking something like this as a child when we got a VCR. I think I remember that realization that "this is a menu I can explore". The exploratory skills you pick up when you have to figure out how to use something technical generalize really well to other technical things.

TL;DR: I think VCRs were hard to program because the limited UI of buttons and a tiny screen meant that you actually needed a fairly built-up mental model of the process to keep track of what you were doing.

Re:The Decline of Usability by aspenmayer on Saturday April 18, 2020 @04:14PM (#22910731)
I really like how you brought to the fore this concept of intuition as it relates to UI/UX in technology products. There’s a certain cachet in being able to operate technical devices. There’s similar social capital to be gained in creating useful results using technology. If only the embedded intuition of operating the device worked with the goal of creating useful results with the device.

The biggest “what were they thinking” part for me is why they cram a whole GUI with config options and menus into a clock when almost every use case for a VCR is already connected to a perfectly workable display which is much better suited to a GUI in the form of the TV. Later VCRs had onscreen rather than on-device GUIs but by then institutional momentum was too far along to redesign the remote when they moved the GUI out of the device and onscreen. Truly a missed opportunity.

I don’t know anyone involved in any VCR product. If I did I’d be asking them a lot of questions. But I have a hard time thinking they meant to make it so hard. They probably were clapping each other on the back and congratulating each other. They were inventing future ways of using content and for that they deserve praise. They just sucked at understanding how hard it is for non experts to put themselves in the mind of experts, someone whose inner mental world has jarringly different contours and whose mental model of reality may have little to no correspondence whatsoever with their own.

Re:The Decline of Usability by disqard on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:34PM (#22909394)
This is a great observation! The blinking-indicates-editable-via-buttons-mode is a mental model you either have or you do not. It is certainly not axiomatic and needs some experimentation to learn. Digital writwatches with those standard three buttons also relied on this mental model.
Re:The Decline of Usability by Noos on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:27PM (#22904288)
Not really, that's more a cliche. I set the clock on mine to tape programming when I wasn't there, and if anything it was probably easier than setting clock radios and watches now.
Re:The Decline of Usability by Talanes on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:08PM (#22904769)
I was a child during the heyday of VCR, but I don't think any of my family was aware of timed recording. The whole concept just didn't exist in our lives until Tivo. Non-obvious features plus buying things second hand just meant you never learned everything your stuff did back before you could find manuals online.
Re:The Decline of Usability by Symbiote on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:43AM (#22906511)
My family could afford most things new, we had the manuals. I think my parents read them too, as they knew how to use the timed recording feature. My grandma knew how to use hers!

Many people would keep the manuals near the TV, so they could remind themselves how to use the rarely used features.

The Panasonic VCR we had included a barcode reader in the remote. The printed TV guide has barcodes for each program. This interface was very easy to use -- scan, and press "transmit".

Edit to add a link to an advert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGUbE1v5RA -- the sheet of timecodes was necessary if you didn't have a TV guide with them printed, as shown here: http://www.champagnecomedy.com/panasonic-barcodes-saving-you...

Re:The Decline of Usability by hilbert42 on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:40PM (#22911330)
"Non-obvious features plus buying things second hand just meant you never learned everything your stuff did back before you could find manuals online."

That's the outrageous point. You shouldn't need manuals for operation of ordinary domestic appliances! If you do then you automatically know its design is substandard!

(The only reason you should need a manual is for some info or maintenance function that's not normally associated with its user-operated functions.)

Re:The Decline of Usability by mcswell on Sunday April 19, 2020 @12:36PM (#22916969)
Anecdote: a little while after the start of this covid thing, I broke the band on my wristwatch. My first impulse was to run to the store, or order a new one from Amazon. Then I realized: I'm working from home, there are clocks all around me, and I don't need to be anywhere at any particular time (and my computer warns me about upcoming Zoom meetings).

So now my wristwatch is sitting on the desk.

Re:The Decline of Usability by tunap on Saturday April 18, 2020 @08:51AM (#22907352)
I think of programming the Betamax(VHS rival) everytime I scrolled through the interface on 1990s/2000s printers. I built the nested file structure in my head rather than reading it on the screen. It has made navigating the digital world so much more natural(for me).

*The hard part of programming the Beta(and early VHS) for me was getting the family to leave the tuner on the channel I/we wanted to record.

Re:The Decline of Usability by RandomBacon on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:21PM (#22905077)
Speaking of feature bloat...

I hate that ovens and microwaves have clocks on them. I don't need two devices in my kitchen to tell time. It's ridiculous since they usually next to each other, and most of the time have different displays. Just because there is an LCD/whatever, doesn't mean it always has to display something!

At least on the latest power outage, my microwave stopped showing the time. The oven still flashed, so I set that time and only have one clock in my kitchen now.

Even my vehicle has two clocks in it, one on the instrument cluster and one on the infotainment system. So stupid!!!

Re:The Decline of Usability by TeMPOraL on Saturday April 18, 2020 @11:47AM (#22908500)
> The oven still flashed,

What's even more crazy, increasingly often I've started to encounter ovens that don't work until you set the clock. I.e. if the clock was reset and is blinking, the heater won't turn on. Took me a while to figure it out the first time I saw it.

Re:The Decline of Usability by 1123581321 on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:41PM (#22908891)
A lot of ovens have a delayed bake feature that uses the time. I’ve never seen a microwave with that feature, though, and it’s also the less essential device.
Re:The Decline of Usability by pfranz on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:36PM (#22904326)
If they couldn't make it easier to set I think the clock should have been less prominent. It's necessary if you're doing a scheduled recording.

It's too bad time sync over power lines didn't catch on widely (or broadcast over the radio). It would still be saving everyone from changing their digital clocks during DST.

Re:The Decline of Usability by thewebcount on Saturday April 18, 2020 @11:07AM (#22908232)
They tried compromises like VCR Plus+[0]. It was basically a 6 digit code that would be printed next to the show name in places like TV Guide. You would enter the code into your VCR instead of a time, and it would figure out how to record it. I think it still required a working clock, though.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code

Re:The Decline of Usability by Symbiote on Saturday April 18, 2020 @05:53AM (#22906560)
Do you not have a radio clock?

They're common in Europe, on a midrange bedside clock for example, and typical office/school clocks.

I remember we were foiled by one at school, when someone set the clock 15 minutes forward when the teacher wasn't looking. The hands could only move forward, so a few minutes later they started spinning 11½ hours further forward to set the correct time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock

Re:The Decline of Usability by pfranz on Saturday April 18, 2020 @06:49PM (#22911767)
Interesting. I think I've seen those things, but I've never bought one. I was expecting this tech would be built into microwaves, ovens, and cars by now.
Re:The Decline of Usability by Animats on Sunday April 19, 2020 @03:37AM (#22914247)
Time over analog TV signals was supported in EIA-608, the standard for sending closed captions and other data in one line of the vertical retrace interval. PBS stations used to send it. Few things used that data.

In the 1990s I encountered a hotel TV with that feature. It had a built-in clock with hands (not on screen), which was also the alarm clock for the room. No one had set it up, and I spent about ten minutes with the remote getting it to find a station with time info and set the clock. Then the "alarm set" function on the remote would work and I could set my wake-up time.

Re:The Decline of Usability by kristopolous on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:46PM (#22904651)
Time codes inside of analog terrestrial NTSC sounds really easy and obvious.

Given that nobody did it, it would appear that even though legally people like Mr. Rogers were making the case for time-shift programming, the industry must have assumed it was a minor use case.

Re:The Decline of Usability by pfranz on Saturday April 18, 2020 @02:25AM (#22905748)
The main reason I mentioned it is that I know I've seen various implementations--they're just not widely adopted. I guess nobody has the business interest to make it all work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services (NTSC) looks like a 2008 standard and most PBS stations provide "autoclock" time data

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Data_System (FM radio) I figured this had an implementation considering text has been around for years. Amazingly, I don't think I've ever seen a car stereo use it to set the time!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines I know this has been around but has had a lot of hurdles. I figured the current time might be a simpler thing.

The only reliably time-setting tech I've seen integrated is GPS--I'm not 100% sure how time zones work with it, but it does know your location.

Re:The Decline of Usability by Jtsummers on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:57PM (#22904705)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services

Autoclock setting was done for VCRs. It just happened much later than the case in question.

Re:The Decline of Usability by a1369209993 on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:42AM (#22905373)
> the industry must have assumed it was a minor use case.

You mean the same industry that was trying to make time-shifting (and VCRs in general) illegal?

Re:The Decline of Usability by XorNot on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:26PM (#22904564)
The problem was everyone did it once, and then lost power at some point and it went into "minor task not ever important enough to be worth taking the time.

If they'd included a backup battery to retain the clock, I suspect it'd been less of a thing.

Re:The Decline of Usability by Talanes on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:05PM (#22904761)
In the days before power strips were ubiquitous, my VCR got unplugged whenever I played the Sega. There was no way anyone was setting the clock daily.
Re:The Decline of Usability by pfranz on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:06PM (#22905024)
I still think that's part of the bad UI =) That setup was bad unless you included a battery or time was likely to set itself.
Re:The Decline of Usability by lmm on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:53PM (#22904960)
> If they couldn't make it easier to set I think the clock should have been less prominent. It's necessary if you're doing a scheduled recording.

On the contrary, the clock needs to be super obvious precisely because it's a pain to set. Otherwise you wouldn't notice until your recordings were messed up.

Re:The Decline of Usability by pfranz on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:05PM (#22905015)
I think context is key. It's only necessary if you have a scheduled recording. So it should only be obvious if you're setting up a scheduled recording or have one queued up. In those cases it should force your or alert you in an obvious manner that the time is not set.