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Re:The Decline of Usability by xg15 on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:26PM (#22903134)
My impression is that modern UX is data-driven alright, it just follows radically different paradigms and goals.

It's not at all anymore about presenting consistent mental models, it's solely about the ease or difficulty with which particular isolated tasks can be performed.

It's also not automatically the goal to make all tasks as easy as possible. Instead, discoverability and "friction" are often deliberately tuned to optimize some higher-level goals, such as retention or conversion rates.

This is why we have dialogs where the highlighted default choice is neither the safe one nor the one expected by the user, but instead the one the company would like the user to take. (E.g. "select all" buttons in GDPR prompts or "go back" buttons if I want to cancel a subscription.

You can see that quite often in browsers as well, often even with good intentions: Chrome, for a time, still used to allow installing unsigned extensions but made the process deliberately obscure and in both Chrome and Firefox , options are often deliberately placed into easy or hard to discover locations. (E.g. a toggle on the browser chrome, vs the "settings" screen, vs "about:config", vs group policies)

Re:The Decline of Usability by kristopolous on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:07PM (#22903413)
Data driven ux seems to put all users in a single bucket.

I will readily admit in collective number of clicks and screentime, 37 year old men with advanced degrees in computer science are a super small minority.

But who is the majority then? Who spends the most time on say Reddit and YouTube? Children! Yes, people who we know are dramatically cognitively different than adults.

Why does YouTube keep recommending videos I've watched? That's what a child wants! Why does reddits redesign look like Nickelodeon?

There isn't one user and one interface that's right for everyone when we're talking about 5 year olds, 50 year olds, and 95 year olds.

We can make them adaptable to the screen, we should also do work to make them adaptable, at fundamental interaction levels, to the person using the screen.

And not in a clever way, but in a dumb one.

For instance, here's how you could ask YouTube: "We have a few interfaces. Please tell us what you like to watch:

* Cartoons and video games

* Lectures and tutorials

* Other "

And that's it. No more "learning", that's all you need to set the interface and algorithms.

Let's take Wikipedia, it could be broken up into children, public, and scholar. Some articles I'm sure are correct but are way too wonky and academic for me to understand and that's ok. There's nothing to fix, I'm sure it's a great tool for professionals. However, there should be a general public version.

Re:The Decline of Usability by lukeschlather on Saturday April 18, 2020 @01:29AM (#22905544)
> Let's take Wikipedia, it could be broken up into children, public, and scholar.

"Simple English" does a pretty good job. Obviously it's a mix of children/public but for science/mathematical topics where I'm looking just to verify my basic understanding of something, swapping over to Simple English usually gives me what I was looking for if the main article is immediately going down into technical rabbit holes.

Re:The Decline of Usability by majewsky on Friday April 17, 2020 @06:49PM (#22903723)
> here's how you could ask YouTube: "We have a few interfaces. Please tell us what you like to watch: [...]

This proposal quickly falls apart because your categories are ill-defined based on your preconceptions. I watch a ton of lectures about video games on Youtube (e.g. speed run breakdowns or game lore theories). Do I choose the "Cartoons and video games" bucket or the "Lectures and tutorials" bucket?

Re:The Decline of Usability by kristopolous on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:28PM (#22903979)
yeah it was off the cuff. If you ask a 9 year old online if they're an adult, some will say "yes". I mean I guess it's their loss. Maybe a more direct approach is better.

"We've found adults and teens like different parts of youtube and use it differently. We want to make it the best for you. You can switch at any time, but tell us what best describes you:

* I'm an adult

* I'm not an adult.

"

youtube has this "for kids" app which came out after I first started pointing this difference in earnest around 2013, (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...) but it's not right and they clearly still cater their main interface to the habits of children who watch the same video hundreds of times - the insane repetition is a part of learning nuance and subtly in the context of content they don't have to actually pay attention to. It's all about learning the meta, super important. They know what happens, it's the silence in between they're excited about - that's the nature of play.

This app instead silos the kids into a playskool interface, great for people under 7 or so, but like our playground reform, we've made it completely unappealing for the 8-22 or so demographic (when I was a kid and there were ziplines into a bank of tires, you bet there were 20 year olds lining up to have a good time on those, we all have a need for play; freedom to err wrapped in relative safety).

Instead, it's data-driven UX for adults and data-driven UX for children - it's about separating the data, not a PTA-acceptable UX for overprotective parents.

Re:The Decline of Usability by wolco on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:27AM (#22905326)
The best thing a parent could do is download a set of approved videos and use a local playlist.

The easiest thing to do is just allow them on youtube no filter.

The middle ground is the play app. Weird stuff sometimes get through but usually it's more someone dressed as a pretend princess. The good thing it's never really a murder scene or something equally as horrible (which could popup on youtube.com).

What would you do as a parent?

I would avoid youtube unless you setup the video until 7 or 11. After that it depends on the child.

Re:The Decline of Usability by Talanes on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:12AM (#22905262)
The one big thing "For Kids" has going for it is the pro-active identity. Rather than feeling like they are missing out by not being an adult, they instead feel like they're picking the thing that's special for them.
Re:The Decline of Usability by msla on Saturday April 18, 2020 @12:51AM (#22905403)
> Let's take Wikipedia, it could be broken up into children, public, and scholar. Some articles I'm sure are correct but are way too wonky and academic for me to understand and that's ok. There's nothing to fix, I'm sure it's a great tool for professionals. However, there should be a general public version.

It kinda has this for specific subjects:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_quantum_mechan...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Introductory_articles

Re:The Decline of Usability by NikolaeVarius on Saturday April 18, 2020 @08:04AM (#22907127)
Re:The Decline of Usability by Animats on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:03PM (#22904167)
options are often deliberately placed into easy or hard to discover locations. (E.g. a toggle on the browser chrome, vs the "settings" screen, vs "about:config", vs group policies)

Yes, and Mozilla has become much worse about this. Turning off "Pocket Integration", or "Shared Bookmarks", or "Mozilla Telemetry", or "Auto update" becomes harder in each release.

Re:The Decline of Usability by derefr on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:15PM (#22903901)
I mean, at least for the "go back" case, it seems like good sense for any non-reversible action (delete, overwrite, buy, send, etc.) to highlight the option that means that people that are just mashing their way through prompts without looking at what's going on won't be screwing themselves over by doing something irrevocable they didn't mean to do.

Native macOS apps get to be a bit clever for this, in that there are two kind of button-highlight-state per dialog (the "default action" button, which is filled with the OS accent color; and, separately, the button the tab-selection starts off highlighting, which has an outline ring around it.) This means that there are two keys you can mash, for different results: mashing Enter results in pressing the default action (i.e. colored) button–which Apple HIG suggests be the "Confirm" option for dangerous cases; while mashing Space results in selecting the initially-selected (i.e. outlined) button—which Apple HIG suggests be the "Cancel" option for dangerous cases. I believe that, in cases where the action isn't irrevocable, Apple HIG suggests that the default-action and initially-selected attributes be placed on the same button, so that either mash sequence will activate the button.

I really wish that kind of thinking was put into other systems.

Re:The Decline of Usability by dfox on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:45PM (#22904060)
This distinction is used by all CUA-derived GUI toolkits. Unfortunately by default windows uses same outline style for both default and focused buttons so there is no visual distinction. (there is an alternative button style on windows that distinguishes between these two states, but it tends to be used to mark buttons as two-state and anyway looks distinctly ugly and non-native)
Re:The Decline of Usability by int_19h on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:48PM (#22904380)
Windows distinguishes default and focused, it's just a bit subtle. A button in focus has a dotted rectangle around the contents (immediately adjacent to the actual border, which is why it's kinda hard to see). A button that's the default has a thick blue outer border in Win10, and used to have a black border in the classic Win9x theme.

What is different in Win32, however, is that if any button is focused, it is also made the default for as long as focus is on it (or, alternatively - Enter always activates the focused button). Thus, there's no visual state for "focused, not default", because there's no such thing.

The distinction still matters, though, because if you tab away from a button to some other widget that's not a button, the "default" button marker returns back to where it originally was - focus only overrides it temporarily.

This can be conveniently explored in the standard Win32 print dialog (opened e.g. from Notepad), since it has plenty of buttons and other things on it. Just tab through the whole thing once.

Re:The Decline of Usability by acqq on Saturday April 18, 2020 @10:18AM (#22907909)
And even that concept (of "defaultness" of a button) is IMO wrong: it introduces "modes" of operation -- you have to look to see what is the default before you can press Enter. Which also means that you can't even have some general expectation what the Enter key is going to do when.

There were computer keyboards which had a distinction between the button to enter the field and the button to, for example, do the desired action behind the whole dialog. Just like today it is common to expect that Esc is going to cancel the dialog (or the entry form) there was a key that one knew would do the "proceed" (GO) independently of the position in which field your cursor is at the moment (or was). In these operating systems Enter always did just the non-surprising "end of the entering of the current input field, skip to the next" and the "GO" signaled the end of that process and the wish to use everything that has been entered up to any point. It's particularly convenient when entering a lot of numerical data on the numeric keypad, where Enter also just moves to the next field.

I think that concept was right, and better than what we have today. Entering what are basically "forms" in any order (filling the dialogs) and proceed from any point is a basic task and could have remained less surprising.

Re:The Decline of Usability by lloeki on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:59PM (#22903371)
> It's not at all anymore about presenting consistent mental models, it's solely about the ease or difficulty with which particular isolated tasks can be performed.

IOW following metrics optimising for local maxima instead of looking at the big picture in a non-zero sum game. Each task is made easier by itself but in doing so creates a model in conflict with everything else, making everyone miserable. Nash would be sad.