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Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by dekhn on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:22PM (#22892551)
One of my favorite parts of Feynman's brilliant talk about the limits of minaturizing mechanical devices, "There's plenty of room at the bottom":

"""If, for instance, having made a small lathe with a pantograph, we find its lead screw irregular – more irregular than the large-scale one – we could lap the lead screw against breakable nuts that you can reverse in the usual way back and forth until this lead screw is, at its scale, as accurate as our original lead screws, at our scale.

We can make flats by rubbing unflat surfaces in triplicates together – in three pairs – and the flats then become flatter than the thing you started with. Thus, it is not impossible to improve precision on a small scale by the correct operations. So, when we build this stuff, it is necessary at each step to improve the accuracy of the equipment by working for awhile down there, making accurate lead screws, Johansen blocks, and all the other materials which we use in accurate machine work at the higher level. We have to stop at each level and manufacture all the stuff to go to the next level – a very long and very difficult program. Perhaps you can figure a better way than that to get down to small scale more rapidly."""

Many ideas contributed to the modern process of 5nm lithography, but having flat surface plates whose precision is determined by the correct application of operations rather than an external standard has turned out to be one of the most profound.

Now, of course, you can buy a granite surface place with accuracy exceeding almost anything available 100 years ago, for $30. And there are youtube videos of flat surface aficinados who scrape their own.

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by Animats on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:30PM (#22893775)
Making a precision lead screw is an important step. Maudslay invented the modern metal lathe. His original, from around 1800, is in the Science Museum, London, and it has most of the features of a metal lathe of 1900. Or today.

A screw cutting lathe requires a good lead screw as its reference. Maudslay invented a "screw origination machine"[1], a clever special-purpose device for making a more accurate screw than the one you have. It only cuts soft metal, so the screw it makes is used in a second lathe to make one in hard steel. This is another of the key steps in bootstrapping to precision.

Early precision work was limited to flat things and round things. Take a look at a steam locomotive from around 1900. Every surface that has to be held to a tight tolerance is flat or round. That's because the precision tools of the era were the planer, lathe, and drill. The general purpose milling machine came later.

Incidentally, this is the real reason manholes were round. In the great era of city sewer-building, you could make round metal manhole covers easily, by casting and a quick lathe pass. The ring into which they fit could also be easily finished on a lathe. Making an iron rectangular frame and a lid to fit it would have been a much harder and more expensive job.

[1] https://gracesguide.co.uk/Henry_Maudslay:_Machine_Tools

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by dekhn on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:10PM (#22894079)
Some of this is covered in One Good Turn: The Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw, which I enjoyed more than The Perfectionists. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CVR143M/

Circa mid-1960s, this defined precision: https://www.amazon.com/Foundations-mechanical-accuracy-Wayne... (at this level of precision, you need a room-within-a-room climate control, because thermal expansion of objects). That leads down the rathole of "jig borers" for making precisely located holes of precise radius and diamond turning machines which are nice for cutting optics.

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by jbay on Friday April 17, 2020 @02:12AM (#22896665)
Fast-forward to 2016 to see how much the technology has changed:

https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2016/09/meet-bob-pmls-...

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by SECProto on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:37PM (#22895428)
> Incidentally, this is the real reason manholes were round.

This doesn't pass the sniff test to me. A manhole lid fits loosely in its frame, and is simply cast. The round shape is used ecause that way the lid cannot fall into the hole (frame is a slightly narrower diameter than the lid is in any orientation)

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by hombre_fatal on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:23AM (#22896177)
But that works with equilateral polygons as well. How would a square lid fall into a smaller square hole?
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by mattclarkdotnet on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:45AM (#22896271)
Diagonally, because the hole is 1.4 times wider diagonally than the cover is on each side
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by hombre_fatal on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:31PM (#22964355)
Me dumb. The hole would have to be much smaller.
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by patrickyeon on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:41AM (#22896253)
Diagonally. The length of a side is considerably shorter (1/sqrt(2) times shorter, actually) than the diagonal.
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by analog31 on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:27AM (#22896193)
There's a lovely article from 1886, written by Henry Rowland, who made the first decent diffraction gratings. He wrote about his process of lapping the screw threads to take out minor local errors. His screw didn't have to do a lot of work, but it had to be damn uniform.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica,...

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by Stratoscope on Friday April 17, 2020 @02:59AM (#22896842)
That is a marvelous article, thank you!

This sentence under Mounting of Screws rings true today:

> The principle which should be adopted is that no workmanship is perfect; the design must make up for its imperfections.

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by dekhn on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:59AM (#22900134)
Interestingly, even after that work, they ended up having to debug a really tricky problem. They sent their gratings to the premier astronomer at Harvard, who reported they weren't "perfect. Eventually this was debugged to a situation where a cam advanced the cutting tool after completing a cutting row, but only occurred when the cable connecting the motor to the tool had a slight bulge due to how the cable was cut and joined.

More fun: http://snl.mit.edu/pub/papers/WP/Nanoruler-White-Paper.pdf

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by kazen44 on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:40PM (#22893852)
If you are interested in the history of precision engineering. I can highly recommend the book titled "The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World".[1]

It does into detail on how precision manufacturing was created from the beginnings of the industrial revolution until today. The book has some funny anocdotes from history, and despite being quite long i found it easy to read.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-perfectioni...

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by defterGoose on Thursday April 16, 2020 @07:47PM (#22894762)
If you're going to go down such a rabbit hole, you'll be well served by checking out the ostensible bible on the subject as well, "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" by Moore.
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by audiometry on Thursday April 16, 2020 @08:01PM (#22894866)
This book astounds me. The depths they went to achieve millionth of inch accuracy was crazy. That book is quite expensive and rare it seems. I have a copy but it was 100$+ dollars.

There are a couple guys on YouTube doing very nice demonstrations of high-accuracy operations. One is Ox Tool Company. Interesting grinding operations etc.

Really smart stuff. These machinists of the 1930 1940 1950s were just as clever as John Carmack or whoever your modern nerd heroes are.

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by timdierks on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:07PM (#22895570)
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by meatsock on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:08PM (#22895862)
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by war1025 on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:11PM (#22895283)
I saw this book precisely once at the bookstore and could never find it again.

Thanks for posting this link since now I may actually be able to get hold of the book. Previously I couldn't remember the name even.

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by StrictDabbler on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:46AM (#22900029)
Why are people so obsessed with "the real reason" for round manhole covers?

Manholes are round, or were, so that they wouldn't cave in. Everything in a Victorian sewer is round. The passages are too.

You have a round hole in the ground. You need to put a cover on it. Why would you put a square cover? It's going to be smaller than the hole and restrict access or larger than the hole and waste materials.

That's plenty of reason. There doesn't have to be some aspect of machining or a brain-teaser about square covers falling in when on edge or anything else.

We put square covers on round ducts and vice versa for a bunch of reasons in HVAC today. Aesthetics, ease of making dampers, flow... it's a pain in the neck, but we do it, because something is forcing us to. You need a reason to put a square cover on a round hole.

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by dekhn on Friday April 17, 2020 @11:54AM (#22900095)
The reason people are obsessed, is that it was published in a book about software interviews, but the stated answers aren't always "right". For example, there are square manhole covers and the world doesn't fall apart. The reason isn't necessarily "because the geometry dictates this answer" but at times was probably expedient.
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by jhallenworld on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:06PM (#22895566)
Even today modern precision work is cheaper for round things than other shapes. This is why you will not see internal combustion engines with square pistons / cylinders.
Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:06PM (#22895853)
Worth noting that modern pistons have ovality!

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston

And a this one I found via DuckDuckGo

https://blog.wiseco.com/pistons-arent-round-profile-and-oval...

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by jhallenworld on Friday April 17, 2020 @10:08AM (#22899082)
Interesting! My statement was based on what I read in the Museum of Retro Tech:

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/museum.htm

Many designs have been tried over the years, but suffer from oil leaks, low compression or high manufacturing costs.

Re:Hand Scraping a Truly Flat Plane (1908) [pdf] by analog31 on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:30AM (#22896209)
Something I've discovered by accident is that the lathe sits idle in most machine shops these days. If you can design something that can be made on the lathe, you can often get it done with virtually no waiting time.