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Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by anonymousci on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:19AM (#22887561)
CircleCI.

Last week during covid crisis, all while announcing a $100m Series E round of financing, they let some employees go and did not offer any severance.

Disorganized management, and with some teams, passive-aggressive management style.

Would not recommend joining...

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by slifin on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:40AM (#22888015)
I don't know much about CircleCI but my understanding is that they are a Clojure shop but (one of?) their founder(s) moved on to Dark Lang

They're replacing their ClojureScript mishmash of libraries with a React action team because they couldn't onboard effectively

As a customer, I can see I'm being pushed into this new UI that I'm indifferent to but moving between the options is difficult

As a Clojurian & customer, I'm not sure any of this bodes well

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by Insanity on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:49AM (#22887721)
Guess they might just be using Covid as an excuse to get rid of some people? Wouldn't be ethical, but wouldn't be surprised if some companies took advantage of the situation.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by raghava on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:17AM (#22887887)
> Wouldn't be ethical, but wouldn't be surprised if some companies took advantage of the situation.

I know for the fact that few US, Indian firms with offices in India are just using this as an excuse to trim their workforce, enforce paycuts (upto 50%), hold back increments for the year (and even next) and restructure salaries drastically - by moving almost 60% to vaiable pay(which typically never gets paid).

Such a list is live at https://careervscovid19.com/insights

Traditional BigCo ITeS/outsourcing shops are using this as a great opportunity to trim the flab in the middle (claiming as "a dire measure to sustain shareholder value") while it was always about . These are the same bunch in middle-management whom they would pamper regularly by giving quarterly/monthly awards (quarterly Gem, Spot awards, Player of the month, etc bullshit accolades)

And the markets also work that way. On a regular day, if there's firing, stocks of a BigCo go wonky sensing something is amiss. During a crisis, if they do not fire people by the thousands, markets deem it as lack of financial prudence and stocks go down.

Everything (and anything) in the name of profits and shareholder value. There's a saying dated thousands of years, goes like "vyaparam droha chintanam” meaning "Business is all about profits most often via undue advantages".

Related article - http://www.informaticsjournals.com/index.php/dbijb/article/d...

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by blaser-waffle on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:46AM (#22889286)
Our experience with Indian firms during COVID has been rocky.

Most of the big firms (Tata, CTS, CapGemini) have big offices or call centers, with VPNs or private connections to western infrastructure -- otherwise you would have random Indian IPs logging into your systems, and that would make my security team lose their minds.

But with COVID they can't congregate in those offices, and the logistics of getting additional VPNs, working around geo-fencing, and the fact that some of the admins don't have internet at home means they're not able to support anything.

The handful of Filipino and Mexican offshore talent has been more successful in that regard. Mexican talent in particular has been pretty good -- more expensive than Indian hires, but generally more qualified with overlap of US timezones.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by raghava on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:03AM (#22890095)
> some of the admins don't have internet at home means they're not able to support anything

Yes, this is the reality. Most of these shops do not believe in issuing a laptop along with a secure connectivity option, simply because they deem all of that as a sap on procurements.

And they still use shitty 2005 era desktop since work gets done on VDIs (citing info sec and DLP) and desktops are mere dumb terminals. But even to operate those dumb terminals, they are ready to spend cost on electricity and logistics but will actively avoid issuing good equipment just to avoid cost on licenses and manageability.

Bunch of old coots that do not ever learn.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by fxtentacle on Thursday April 16, 2020 @04:17PM (#22893070)
And the lack of good tools and beefy desktop machines is precisely why they cannot grep the code themselves, which is why those outsourced coders will fail unless you micro-manage them with design specifications.

Living in Singapore, I met some people who trained India and then used their own good equipment and their productivity was on par with US or EU employees. I was also unfortunate enough to manage some people using '95 equipment, and they were basically dead weights for the project.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by dehrmann on Friday April 17, 2020 @01:51AM (#22896574)
> big offices or call centers, with VPNs or private connections to western infrastructure

I used to work on a product with a web console. One of the things we designed and planned for was a login storm around 9-10 AM on Monday in pick-a-timezone where 200 users log in from the same IP. If you ignore the seasonality, it looks a bit like an attack.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by danpalmer on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:21PM (#22893699)
I must admit, I get this feeling from using the product over the last 2 years. I moved us over from Jenkins to CircleCI and while on the whole it was positive, we’ve had a lot of issues and the product has failed to live up to some of the promises made in our trial period.

We basically just hit hard edges and missing features very quickly, and what’s there is good, but not great.

Each bit of the product feels good, but it feels like there’s a lack of direction, product thinking, understanding users, or something at a fundamental level that is causing friction.

I have a friend who worked there a few years ago and from her experience it sounds like there are some good engineers, but some careless decisions being made.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by dkersten on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:02AM (#22887788)
Wow that’s nasty! Will be steering clear of them for my CI needs.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by johnnyAghands on Thursday April 16, 2020 @09:00AM (#22888886)
Can you expand a bit more on this, how can they let go without severance? How big was the loss? Was it contractors?

I'm in the final stages interviews and up until now have generally been looking forward to the prospect of working there. This is troubling. Thanks in advance.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by anonymousci on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:28PM (#22892603)
Can we communicate over a private channel? Can share more. Wasn't contractors; was employees. Indeed.

If we can't, my advice to you is to backchannel. See if you have a friend of a friend's who works there, reach out to people via LinkedIn whom you didn't interview with, or find former employees, they will tell you the real story...

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by johnnyAghands on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:23PM (#22895642)
That would be great, email me if you can at [email protected]. Thank you!
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by sbt on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:36AM (#22887656)
How would you characterize the quality of CircleCI? I've spent quite a few hours trying to work out mysterious bugs in a build process that runs fine locally. This morning the web ui was full of 'client error' messages.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by wlll on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:50AM (#22887722)
As an end user I've been pretty happy with it. I've used Jenkins, Travis, Github and Circle mostly, and of those I hope to never have to use Travis or Jenkins again, and I've only really used Github for some simple stuff, but rather enjoyed the experience.

Circle however I've used with some fairly lengthy and complex build processes involving multiple parallel builds of Rails apps during upgrades and it's handled the workflow well.

I think they've improved the UI a bit recently, but it's still pretty complex though.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by ciceryadam on Friday April 17, 2020 @05:22AM (#22897480)
Have you tried Teamcity? https://www.jetbrains.com/teamcity/
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by wlll on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:40AM (#22898458)
No, not yet.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by jmchuster on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:03AM (#22887791)
We've seen great results since switching from Circle to Buildkite, not the least of which is cost, but you have to be willing to do a little bit of your own IT work.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by devocris on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:41AM (#22889844)
But isn't that the point of Circle...not having to do any IT work? At some point the cost of Circle becomes negligible, especially when you consider how much your time is worth...and that you don't have to do any maintenance.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by jmchuster on Thursday April 16, 2020 @04:00PM (#22892890)
Yes, if you are completely allergic to IT work, then your options are more limited. In terms of time, I would say the initial setup cost us a day or two, but after that our EC2 build box has just been fire and forget.

edit: I'll also add that in terms of time, I feel like most of the time in build pipelines is actually spent in tweaking, adding, and modifying the build configs, as opposed to the servers themselves (and you might also value developer time differently from devops time). I have found Buildkite easier to work with than CircleCI in this regard, and thus saved much more time overall.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by sylvinus on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:08AM (#22887824)
I second Buildkite, one of the best choices we made at my previous company.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by sundvor on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:53AM (#22888122)
Buildkite is awesome. Thirded. Love the clear UI, yaml based dynamic pipelines and ease of integration.

Coupled with Terraform for us.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by DuskStar on Thursday April 16, 2020 @08:51PM (#22895174)
Buildkite + preemptible GCP instances has worked great for where I'm working right now!
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by beilabs on Thursday April 16, 2020 @07:43AM (#22888404)
Another happy Buildkite customer here. Beautiful UI and it just works really well.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by davnicwil on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:51AM (#22888097)
You might be interested in what I'm building over at https://boxci.dev

The motivation for this was exactly this problem. With Box CI your local build is your CI build because it runs jobs via agents on your own hardware so you can very easily debug / understand what is going on.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by frenchman99 on Thursday April 16, 2020 @07:15AM (#22888256)
Wow, that looks so practical ! And no server cost/setup/maintenance, I guess.

The thing I'm concerned about that doesn't seem addressed on your home page is security : by installing your agent on my machine, I'm basically giving you access to my machine non-stop, no ? What guarantees do I have that your agent can't be used as a backdoor ?

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by davnicwil on Thursday April 16, 2020 @07:58AM (#22888490)
Great question!

Firstly, and very importantly, the agent is open source (https://github.com/boxci/boxci) so you can see exactly what it does and even build it from source if you want. I should mention Box CI isn't launched yet, everything is still in beta including the agent.

The Box CI service doesn't have any way to send requests to or send commands to agents - the requests are one-way, agent to service only, with agents polling the service for build jobs to run, running them, and sending logs and results to the service.

Build scripts and configuration are all in your source code. This is a tradeoff, because it definitely means you have to trust your source (and everyone committing to it) if you're going to be running agents on your dev machine for instance.

There are obviously mitigations to this though, like running the agents on a dedicated Cloud VM with nothing on the filesystem and internet access locked down to package manager and cloud provider hosts. A future plan is to provide pre-configured VMs for various cloud providers so this can be set up in a few clicks for low cost ($20 a month or whatever a reasonable build machine VM would cost).

The real security point of the the agents though, the other side of these tradeoffs, is that your code and your production secrets never leave hardware you control - the CI service never has access to them. That's a massive security advantage Vs centralised CI services which do have full read access to your source and effectively full write access to your production infrastructure via keys you give them - compared to what I've described above this is a massively bigger and more dangerous potential security hole.

You can probably tell by the length of this comment I'm super interested in this aspect (along with dev experience I see it as the key advantage of the model and one of the reasons I'm building it) there's a lot more depth to this and if you'd like to discuss further, I'd love to :-) Email's in my profile.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by nemo1618 on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:02PM (#22894014)
Neat! I love the model of giving powerful CI tools directly to the user. I ended up with a similar solution for my personal projects: a private bors-style CI GitHub bot, written from scratch, running on my own hardware, that I control via GitHub comments (the bot ignores comments from other users).

It's quite spartan, but it gets the job done, and I love that a) it's fast, b) I can see exactly what happened, down to ssh'ing into the build directory and poking around, and c) If there's a feature I want, I can just add it!

Here's my bot in action: https://github.com/lukechampine/us/pull/37#issuecomment-5936...

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by davnicwil on Thursday April 16, 2020 @07:13PM (#22894545)
Very cool - yeah I know exactly what you mean, running CI workflows on your own machine is just so nice.

When something fails it makes the debug and retry loop just as simple and fast as when you're developing, and there's really nothing like watching a production build run and ship in literally like a minute, just as fast as if you're building and starting your local dev server :-)

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by bdcravens on Thursday April 16, 2020 @04:29PM (#22893202)
v1 was good for us, but when they moved to v2, it just seemed like far more work for us than Codeship Pro.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by davedx on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:36AM (#22887653)
Crazy. They're advertising quite a lot on LinkedIn at the moment too. :(
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by Tade0 on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:52AM (#22887734)
I wouldn't be surprised if this was a method of rotating staff to reduce salary spending.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by jhayward on Thursday April 16, 2020 @01:45PM (#22891764)
You mean kind of a chaos monkey, but for people?
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by beckingz on Friday April 17, 2020 @08:48AM (#22898508)
Stack ranking, but they save money by not sorting the stack.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by lewisj489 on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:12AM (#22887853)
The Met Police (London, UK) love to do this
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by obfk on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:03AM (#22889455)
There's nothing to say the two events are correlated. As far as we can tell, they could have been underperforming sales people who were let go. Hiring/firing is _not_ based off the single criteria of raising money. There are complex business decisions between events like this, regardless of the coin in the coffers.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by halfastack on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:31AM (#22887959)
Wow, I actually really concidered CCI. It seemed like such a great company to work for. It's good to know this.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by jazzyk on Thursday April 16, 2020 @11:05AM (#22890123)
Were any execs let go?

I bet they all had severance guaranteed in their contracts...

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by anonymousci on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:30PM (#22892624)
Not recently, and not due to covid. Within the last 6 months, yes some execs were asked to leave, but no execs let go so far in 2020.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by Zenst on Thursday April 16, 2020 @05:29AM (#22887620)
Looks like their chatbot needs to sanitize input - "All set! I've sent an email confirmation to [email protected]." that will be interesting.
Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by croon on Thursday April 16, 2020 @06:43AM (#22888037)
Thanks for the great idea!

I have a fairly rare surname, but have {surname} at gmail, so I get a lot of "spam" from companies that sign me up before verifying if the user inputting my email is the person owning the email.

In the most egregious/spammy cases I'm gonna find some higher-up emails and sign them up for their own services in hopes that the practice will stop.

TL;DR: email confirmation or get egged.

Re:Ask HN: Who Is Firing? by vkaku on Thursday April 16, 2020 @10:31PM (#22895679)
Whoa. I was close to using their product. You just talked me out of it.