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Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @03:05PM (#22815933)
This is the standard scream of incumbent players when they want to discourage regulation. It both ignores the fact that what's "reasonable" for an incumbent monopoly and a small startup are different, and that the law generally accounts for scale.
Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by marcinzm on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @04:26PM (#22816704)
>the law generally accounts for scale.

Not in a useful way I've noticed because a small company can service hundreds of thousand easily thanks to the power of the internet. CCPA, for example, essentially sets the cutoff at 50000 users which you can get to pretty quickly with a consumer startup. The cutoff helps the local pizzeria I guess but not any actual competitor to incumbents.

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by dfee on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @03:46PM (#22816317)
this is an interesting counter-counter-argument i've not seen before. does discussion of this sort of derivative behavior exist elsewhere? i.e. is there an established narrative of incumbents pushing against regulatory capture, or examples of this behavior?
Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @04:06PM (#22816519)
It's just a general behavioral trend I (and plenty of others) have noticed in arguments against regulation coming from monopolies. When a big tech company claims a regulation it dislikes would hurt newer players from competing with it, you have to ask... why are they so opposed then?

Is it out of the goodness of their hearts that large companies complain about regulation hurting small businesses? Or is it because the regulation will cost them a ton of money they'd rather keep in the bank, and they know they already have enough market capture to continue to obliterate small businesses either way?

When someone says that regulations on large companies will actually hurt small businesses, the first thing you should do, is look who is claiming that, and see where they get their funding from. It's almost always a think tank funded by the biggest player in the market being discussed.

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by asdfasgasdgasdg on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @10:30PM (#22819271)
> When a big tech company claims a regulation it dislikes would hurt newer players from competing with it, you have to ask... why are they so opposed then?

First off, I haven't seen big companies making this argument. Can you point us to a high quality source where one does?

Secondly, suppose the size of a market is X and BigCo has a 0.9X slice of it. Suppose the cost of complying with new regulation is 0.5X. Now it is impossible for anyone else to compete with BigCo, since there is no way for second place to be profitable in the market. However, BigCo is still worse off. Their revenues are now X, but their profits are now -0.4X compared to what they were before, since they gained 0.1X revenue and lost 0.5X in compliance costs.

So, if a BigCo were to make such an argument, that's at least one case where they could deploy it honestly while at the same time having their own best interests at heart.

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by marcinzm on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @05:51PM (#22817595)
There is a difference between short term and long term impact. Short term regulation costs money and a large player doesn't want that since it'd hurt their stock price. Long term they probably benefit from it but wall street doesn't care as much about that.
Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by btreecat on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @05:34PM (#22817423)
Why not look at who wrote the regulations?
Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by cookie_monsta on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @05:47PM (#22817552)
Because lobbyists tend not to appear in the credits
Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by saferalt on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @03:44PM (#22816302)
Does it "generally account for scale"? Citation needed. The GDPR has a fine structure of up to 4% of world-wide turnover or €20 million. Whichever is HIGHER. That means for any company doing less than say, €20 million in revenue and found to be non-compliant, GDPR gives the legal authority to fine them out of existence. I only mention GDPR as a specific example because of the familiarity here, but the general pattern of non-scaling regulation that results in regulatory capture and monopolization is the norm, not the exception.
Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @04:57PM (#22817051)
Context matters:

The fines must be effective, proportionate and dissuasive for each individual case. For the decision of whether and what level of penalty can be assessed, the authorities have a statutory catalogue of criteria which it must consider for their decision. Among other things, intentional infringement, a failure to take measures to mitigate the damage which occurred, or lack of collaboration with authorities can increase the penalties. For especially severe violations, listed in Art. 83(5) GDPR, the fine framework can be up to 20 million euros, or in the case of an undertaking, up to 4 % of their total global turnover of the preceding fiscal year, whichever is higher. But even the catalogue of less severe violations in Art. 83(4) GDPR sets forth fines of up to 10 million euros, or, in the case of an undertaking, up to 2% of its entire global turnover of the preceding fiscal year, whichever is higher.

https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/fines-penalties/

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by IAmEveryone on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @04:06PM (#22816516)
You’re conveniently ignoring that the percentage-based fine structure in itself is almost literally “accounting for scale”.

The minimum (of the maximum) set by the “whichever is higher” clause is needed to remain effective with non- and low-revenue entities. Something like Clearview (universal face recognition but startup with little revenue) would otherwise be free to ignore the law.

If your small company does enough damage to warrant a 20 million fine, it probably deserves to die. These fines also aren’t assessed arbitrarily: there’s a specific list of factors to take into account, and all decisions are subject to judicial review under the established principles of proportionality.

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by novok on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @04:23PM (#22816684)
> These fines also aren’t assessed arbitrarily: there’s a specific list of factors to take into account, and all decisions are subject to judicial review under the established principles of proportionality.

You hope bureaucrats do not act mechanistically and do not apply proportionality, but over and over again in recent history you see that exact behavior. Which is why no business trusts a statement of 'they'll be might be nice, but nothing is effectively stopping them from not being nice other than some platitudes'!

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @05:02PM (#22817104)
> You hope bureaucrats do not act ... nothing is effectively stopping them from not being nice other than some platitudes

One argument goes something like this:

The state always reserves the right to extinguish you, either by execution or permanent non-judicial incarceration, regardless of laws.

We all can only always hope state-level actors don't abuse their powers.

Whether they are or aren't at any particular time is somewhat subjective.

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by novok on Wednesday April 08, 2020 @04:18PM (#22816621)
The GDPR does not explicitly account for scale in practice, but pretends you're a $300 million dollar business, with the resources to do proper GDPR compliance, which is why the response of many small businesses is to stop serving europeans. And these businesses had nothing to do with privacy invasion, such as classes you pay for, paid note taking apps an so on.
Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by zwaps on Thursday April 09, 2020 @03:35AM (#22820546)
While in theory you are right, there is a distinction.

GDPR makes business more difficult, but it codifies a human right to privacy that, much like worker safety, should have been implemented anyway.

The present regulation does the opposite. It ultimately implies that any company that does not comply with the insane US post 9/11 laws on large scale spying, extrajudicial sanctioning and, arguably, racial and ethnic discrimination, will be sued into the ground.

Scary especially for non US citizens, who are not in practice afforded judicatory or constitutional rights in the US

Re:230, or not 230? That is the EARN IT question by novok on Thursday April 09, 2020 @01:36PM (#22825092)
Whatabouting about the GDPR doesn't address any of the criticism of it, I wasn't talking about the EARN IT act in my comment.

I bet many agree here any that those US laws and actions are bad too. I really care about privacy myself also, more than the typical tech worker looking at the actions of my coworkers compared to me.

If there was GDPR casual or GDPR lite for small businesses, kind of like small business taxes where hiring an accountant once a year for a few thousand euros was enough, then I don't think people would be up in arms about the GDPR.

If GDPR-casual was good faith level of actions where all you did is kept a log of privacy data clearing requests, like a copy of an email and a copy saying you did it back, and then did a best effort cleanup, I don't think anyone would care. It's the very large compliance burden that GDPR imposes, with a lot of liability gotchas everywhere if you don't implement bureaucratic detail #2929 that put people up in arms. And if you say that it isn't like that, it shows you haven't really looked at what is required by the GDPR or tried to implement it in your company.