News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:26PM (#22721837)
> Governments are so utterly broken and inefficient that they can’t do it.

Exactly. Which means we should not be depending on governments to do it. This is exactly the sort of thing that private startup companies should be doing, without trying to involve the government's bloated and inefficient bureaucracy.

> even if they produced a design now we have supply chain problems globally

For this particular crisis, yes. But not for the next one, if we start now.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by smacktoward on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:41PM (#22722004)
There is no profit to be made in building up huge stockpiles of ventilators that will only be used in the event of a freak disaster. Government has to pay for such things, because no economically rational private investor would.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by blunte on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:33PM (#22721915)
It was already a small private company doing the contract. Another bigger company (that was publicly traded and therefore operating with shareholder profit as the primary if only concern) came along and bought the smaller private company. This happens to start-ups all the time.

What does this have to do with "government's bloated and inefficient bureaucracy"? The only government failure I see in this story is that they allowed the sale of the small company to the big one, or that they allowed the big company to get out of the contract.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by worik on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:38PM (#22721969)
I completely disagree.

If the government had done it in house they could have succeeded.

The problem here was the profit motive. Cheep ventilators endanger profits.

It is a side effect of free markets (I like free markets) that big firms get bigger, get more market power, kill off competition then price gouge. Health is a bad bad place to have free markets as the incentives are almost all wrong (exceptions: E.g. running clinics as a service for state run health systems turns out to work well here in Aotearoa - but even that is under pressure from consolidation)

Nationalise the whole ball of wax. Use waiting lists not wealth to ration access. FFS the richest country in the world is heading to a health catastrophe. What a bunch of idiots!

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:45PM (#22722034)
> If the government had done it in house they could have succeeded.

Ok, so how do we get the government to do it in house, and stick to it long enough so that the stockpile is there when the next disease crisis happens, which might not be for another 10 years? That's five Congressional elections and at least two changes of Presidential administration.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by m0xte on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:55PM (#22722138)
Party politics is a separate shit show. It should be an elected council with no single representation. That would allow smaller, manageable policy changes rather than burn the entire universe every few years.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @05:23PM (#22722892)
> Party politics is a separate shit show. It should be an elected council with no single representation.

Ok, so your plan for solving the ventilator issue is to change the entire system of government. Good luck with that.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by worik on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:48PM (#22722057)
Government is not congress, or a president. It is civil servants beavering away.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:51PM (#22722093)
> Government is not congress, or a president. It is civil servants beavering away.

The civil servants work on what Congress and the President set as priorities. They cannot execute plans that span multiple Congresses and Presidential administrations unless every single Congress and Administration over that time period agrees to support the plan.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by worik on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:54PM (#22722131)
They flew to the moon.

They built a horrifying arsenal.

I really do not see why they cannot build a health system. They have done so here.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @05:26PM (#22722911)
> They flew to the moon.

Yes, because three successive Presidential administrations and six successive Congresses supported it.

More precisely, two successive administrations and about four successive Congresses supported it. The third administration began to back off, as did the fifth Congress; then the sixth Congress, along with the administration, stopped supporting it--and the moon missions stopped. Despite the fact that a large number of civil servants were making cogent arguments for why they should continue.

> They built a horrifying arsenal.

Yes, because every President and every Congress since 1945 has supported it.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by AnthonyMouse on Sunday March 29, 2020 @04:10PM (#22722251)
Healthcare is a much larger proportion of the economy than NASA ever was. And if you're trying to put up the US military as an exemplar of US government efficiency and competence, no thank you.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by zozbot234 on Sunday March 29, 2020 @04:05PM (#22722214)
There's no "free market" in healthcare; it's one of the most heavily regulated sectors in the economy. It's a known side-effect of regulation that big and politically-connected firms are advantaged over smaller and leaner ones, market power tends to increase in lockstep with the regulatory burden, and a lot of price gouging becomes feasible that wouldn't occur in a more contestable environment.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @06:18PM (#22723292)
Not only is health care regulated, it isn't even a market in the correct sense, because the people actually getting the health care services--patients--don't even know how much the services themselves cost. Which means that nobody is in a position to judge whether the services are worth what they cost. This isn't a market at all, it's a recipe for disaster. Which of course is exactly what we have.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by fyfy18 on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:30PM (#22721877)
Wait... isn't that exactly what the article says they tried to do?
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:34PM (#22721924)
The government tried, but then canceled the contract at the request of the big company that had bought out the small company they originally had the contract with.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by neffy on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:38PM (#22721973)
Exactly. The issue in some sense isn't government, it's the corruption of government by corporations that have been allowed to become to big and to powerful, to the extent that the US Government itself has been deliberately defunded. (Sure, I know Government spending grows every year, but so does the money supply and corporate profits. Control for monetary expansion, and the US Government's portion of the economy has been steadily shrinking.)
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:47PM (#22722048)
> The issue in some sense isn't government, it's the corruption of government

Ok, so how do we keep the government from being corrupted? Nobody has yet solved that problem, and people have been trying for centuries.

> Control for monetary expansion, and the US Government's portion of the economy has been steadily shrinking.

The money supply is not the same as the economy. Government spending as a percentage of GDP, which is the closest estimate we have to "the size of the economy", has been growing, not shrinking.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by m0xte on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:56PM (#22722148)
Well the first thing you do is ban professional politicians and lobbying.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by amanaplanacanal on Sunday March 29, 2020 @05:16PM (#22722830)
The trick is doing that while still having some semblance of free speech, and allowing constituents to talk to their representatives about what problems they are seeing.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @06:19PM (#22723297)
As I commented upthread, your solution is to just change the entire system of government. Sure, that should be simple. Not.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by m0xte on Monday March 30, 2020 @04:51AM (#22726276)
Big problems require drastic changes.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by AnthonyMouse on Sunday March 29, 2020 @04:06PM (#22722224)
> Control for monetary expansion, and the US Government's portion of the economy has been steadily shrinking.

What? No it hasn't. It has kept pace with GDP since the end of WWII (prior to WWII it was much smaller), and the rate of GDP growth is higher than the rate of inflation. The size of government in the US has been growing continuously in real terms since before Eisenhower.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by AnthonyMouse on Sunday March 29, 2020 @04:16PM (#22722305)
> For this particular crisis, yes.

Really not even for this particular crisis. We can build more of something on a short timescale, it just costs more then. You have to build facilities you know are only going to run for six months and then be decommissioned, so you have to amortize their construction cost over half a year instead of 30 years. You have to build them on the double, which means paying a lot of overtime and buying land and raw materials without taking a lot of time to negotiate on price or worry about efficiency. But we could do it.

And then the ventilators would cost ten times more than they ordinarily do and idiots would accuse anybody trying to do this of price gouging. But it could be done. (Unless the idiots pass a law against charging more than the regular price during an emergency.)

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by onetimemanytime on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:31PM (#22721891)
Why should hospital X buy 100 ventilators...just in case, unless the gov made them do it?
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:36PM (#22721954)
> Why should hospital X buy 100 ventilators...just in case

Well, of course. That's what we're talking about, right? Somebody has to do the long-term planning for emergencies like this one.

I understand that most of us thought it was the government's job to do this long-term planning so individual facilities wouldn't have to, but this article shows that the government failed at that job. Unless we have some reason to think the government wouldn't fail next time, it seems like the only alternative is for private entities to do it.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by neffy on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:40PM (#22721999)
But private entities can't do it, because the market forces them not to - those that the spend the money will be out-competed in the short term by those that don't.
Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by pdonis on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:49PM (#22722075)
> private entities can't do it, because the market forces them not to

Private entities don't have to be subject to the market. Someone like Bill Gates or Elon Musk could set up a privately owned company, not publicly traded, that would not be subject to investors' demands for consistent quarterly growth. Matter of fact, maybe that's what Bill Gates should switch his attention to from malaria.

The fact is, a private individual, or a small group of them, can have a longer time horizon than the government does, and a longer time horizon is exactly what is needed for something like this.

Re:The U.S. tried to build a new fleet of ventilators by onetimemanytime on Sunday March 29, 2020 @03:51PM (#22722088)
The government failed here but they are the only ones that can really prepare. A pandemic is as much as a threat as USSR, Bin Laden was, or China is, so just as they have these billion dollar planes they should prepare for Covid like situations.