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Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by mrkramer on Thursday March 26, 2020 @09:31AM (#22693378)
Germany lost 2 World Wars and today it has greater GDP than UK by $1 trillion. It doesn't matter who is hit harder it matters whose economy is more efficient and has more innovations.
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by saiya-jin on Thursday March 26, 2020 @12:02PM (#22694920)
Not much comparable. Just a random difference - Germany was quickly rebuilt because allies want it to be rebuilt, and not let impoverished and destroyed like after WWI. We know how that ended...

When talking about efficiency, I think China might have the upper hand now - they are much more effective in discipline, they don't mind suffering things that are unacceptable for us, and look where they are with COVID - ahead of every-fucking-body else. West looks pathetically weak and ineffective compared to them. Maybe in 2 months things will look differently, but I don't see much data for that now.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by mrkramer on Thursday March 26, 2020 @02:35PM (#22696462)
My point was if a country wants to be successful and dominate over others it needs to have an economy which is efficient and which innovates that's why USA is currently world's richest and most powerful country. On the other hand China with its massive workforce and efficiency combined with upcoming innovations is about to become world's new number 1 superpower.
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by pyuser583 on Friday March 27, 2020 @12:23AM (#22700428)
Interesting - the Chinese economy isn’t known for efficiency or discipline. It’s known for its massive scale.

China has been trying to increase its economic efficiency and discipline, but generally failing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/09/19/chi...

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by blackrock on Friday March 27, 2020 @06:18AM (#22701627)
I saw someone make an interesting comparison on this.

In the West, when they think of efficiency, they think of using robots and automation to remove human labor. Labor costs go down, quality goes up, profits go up. Get rid of pesky factory workers and their need for benefits.

The goal in the West, is to maximize profit, above all else.

Whereas with China, when they think of efficiency, they think of production output ratio in mass production. Meaning, how many people can they employ, along with automation and mechanization, in order to massively increase production output.

Humans are more adaptable than robots, and can be repurposed to operate another machine. Quality is not as high, but it may be acceptable. The gain is in mass market share, at a lower cost. And at some point, their higher end manufacturers will automate and compete on par with their western peers.

The goal in China, is to maximize output. Massive profits can come later.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by tnel77 on Saturday March 28, 2020 @12:22AM (#22709200)
>>West looks pathetically weak and ineffective

That’s what happens when your people have almost no rights and you can literally weld their building doors shut. Their strength comes at a cost, and it’s the freedom of their people.

Edit: Also, China only matters because we allow them to matter. As soon as we wise up and let other countries start making our toys and phones, China will be screwed.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by viklove on Thursday March 26, 2020 @12:14PM (#22695048)
> they don't mind suffering things that are unacceptable for us

When the ruling class exploits the working class and suppresses their access to information and free speech, that doesn't mean they "don't mind suffering," it means one sector of the Chinese population has cannibalized another sector in order to build wealth for themselves. Much like what is happening in the US with the ultra-wealthy. It's not all rainbows and roses in China, in fact if you forgot, there is an active genocide in progress in that country.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by saiya-jin on Thursday March 26, 2020 @12:40PM (#22695342)
Genocide or not (nobody knows what is happening in those camps, so I would not use that word unless we have some solid hard evidence), we talk about consequences of covid on societies. And Chinese one seems to be faring much much better than most others.

I just saw how a video of Chinese doctors dressing up for a visit to a covid patient. My doctor wife just stared with open mouth - nothing like that is done here in Switzerland. They use super basic equipment, which is simply not enough to protect long term doctors exposed to patients. We simply don't have the mindset to handle this situation seriously. We will learn eventually, but it will be a painful lesson for our society.

As somebody on HN mentioned a few weeks ago, China defined its bottom with closure and quarantine, and now they are bouncing back. While west is still in free fall.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by pyuser583 on Friday March 27, 2020 @12:10AM (#22700375)
We do know what is happening in the camps. There have been numerous leaks, and accounts of former residents.

There’s no ambiguity. The only way “we don’t know” is if we chose to be ignorant.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by nsporillo on Thursday March 26, 2020 @01:35PM (#22695916)
China understands what matters most and that is controlling the narrative. An authoritarian government excels at manipulating the raw data and thus the narrative.
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by llampx on Thursday March 26, 2020 @06:44PM (#22698741)
Controlling the narrative is also what the US Federal government is currently doing.

They hold nightly pressers, dragged their feet on getting tests out, recently asked states not to publish their unemployment reports, etc.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by viklove on Thursday March 26, 2020 @01:57PM (#22696120)
I'm not arguing against the point that China is handling this better than other countries. I'm arguing against the point that it's because they "don't mind suffering." They do mind suffering, but they have no agency, and their government has decided that they must suffer so that the economy can survive this crisis as healthy as possible.

China is an authoritarian country, and they've resorted to literally locking people into their homes until a quarantine period passes, arresting them, and beating them. Can you imagine if American police started locking apartment complex doors from the outside? I don't want to live in a country like that, even if it means we're worse equipped to deal with pandemics.

And let's not forget this whole thing started in China because their food safety regulations aren't adequate.

edit: ah yes, downvotes -- mash that disagree button

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by travisporter on Thursday March 26, 2020 @03:23PM (#22696947)
I didn't downvote you, and agree with you 100%. Your food safety remark is also right, but makes your whole comment seem less objective.
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by Leherenn on Thursday March 26, 2020 @05:52PM (#22698355)
Well, apparently 40% of the staff in intensive care unit exposed to covid victims has been infected, so I'm not sure how useful those fancy suits are.
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by 0xFFC on Thursday March 26, 2020 @03:42PM (#22697145)
Solzhenitsyn predicted this like 30 years ago.

Not having tolerance for suffering. Lack of courage, destruction of masculinity.

P.S. people can downvote me as much as they want. But that is not going to change the facts.

[dead]
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by abstractbarista on Thursday March 26, 2020 @01:39PM (#22695955)
This is not productive commentary. Looks like his numbers are true, thus his statement is worth something.
[dead]
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by danharaj on Thursday March 26, 2020 @12:57PM (#22695523)
You could have only thought that was a scathing retort if your political ideas are entirely based on the formal manipulation of words and aesthetics.
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by DuskStar on Thursday March 26, 2020 @01:41PM (#22695976)
It was meant more as a "there is no real response to a contentless statement like this" comment, though I admit people don't seem to be taking it that way.
Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by dragonwriter on Thursday March 26, 2020 @12:58PM (#22695537)
Nothing in the grandparent comment is particularly neoliberal; now, if it stated that neoliberal policy assured (or even made more likely) the kind of economic resilience that it suggests is what matters, that would be different, but as it is it is compatible with the criticism of neoliberalism that is common from the center-left to the far left (though each position in this range also has many more criticisms of neoliberalism) that it favors myopic microoptimizations over systemic health and resilience.

Heck, as a center-leftish frequent critic of neoliberalism, I mostly agree with the statement: while who was hit hardest has some effect, differences in the trajectory of the rebound from the bottom tends to matter more for the post-crisis position than differences in the depth of the bottom.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by danharaj on Thursday March 26, 2020 @01:45PM (#22696007)
"efficiency" and "innovation" are neoliberal buzzwords. They are the very same buzzwords that were used to justify the cuts to our supplies and offshoring of our supply chains that led in part to this crisis.

It is absurd on its face to summarize Germany's ascendancy to "efficiency" and "innovation" when, you know, complicated geopolitics is a thing. It is literally fluffy propaganda.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by dragonwriter on Thursday March 26, 2020 @02:34PM (#22696461)
> "efficiency" and "innovation" are neoliberal buzzwords.

No, efficiency and innovation are real things. Neoliberals tend to think that they are areas that neoliberal policy produces better outcomes on, and in the case of efficiency at least there is a strong theoretical case that this is true in a very narrow range of hyper-idealized conditions.

People who are not neoliberals often agree that efficiency and innovation are important (though perhaps not of as paramount importance as neoliberals tend to portray them), but often disagree with neoliberals as to the optimality of neoliberal policies at producing them outside of the kind of simplified conditions that dominate the first couple weeks of undergraduate economics classes.

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by cvlasdkv on Thursday March 26, 2020 @04:29PM (#22697648)
> People who are not neoliberals often agree that efficiency and innovation are important (though perhaps not of as paramount importance as neoliberals tend to portray them), but often disagree with neoliberals as to the optimality of neoliberal policies at producing them outside of the kind of simplified conditions that dominate the first couple weeks of undergraduate economics classes.

People who are not neoliberals often agree that efficiency and innovation are important _up to the point where needs are met for all_. No leftist uses efficiency/innovation as a target (and if they do chase it for the sake of productivity they are by definition not left of capital).

Re:3.28M file for U.S. jobless benefits by dragonwriter on Thursday March 26, 2020 @09:49PM (#22699839)
> People who are not neoliberals often agree that efficiency and innovation are important _up to the point where needs are met for all_. No leftist uses efficiency/innovation as a target (and if they do chase it for the sake of productivity they are by definition not left of capital).

Plenty of leftists, agree with neoliberals that utilitarian efficiency ought to be a key goal of an economic system. Leftists, unlike neoliberals, are unlikely to believe that the capitalist markets optimize for utilitarian efficiency, because, even aside from the general failures of the rational choice model due to imperfect information, etc. (which neoliberals often also discount), capitalist markets effectively weight individual utility differently based on the individual’s wealth.