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Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by kqr on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @01:54AM (#22682295)
Only tangentially related but I have to get it out of my system anyway:

I watched the latest season of the F1 documentary on Netflix, and what stood out beyond anything else to me was that every team pitted their own drivers against each other, had a "you win or you lose" mentality, screamed at people for messing up, and so on.

All teams except one. One team iterated how they "win as a team and make mistakes as a team", mistakes are an opportunity to learn, and so on. One team showed pretty clearly how they had a good culture surrounding failures.

I'm not at all surprised that this one team is the team that has consistently won the last 6 years in a row.

Why aren't more teams copying this? Why is this one team not more secretive about their recipe to success?

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by di4na on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @03:41AM (#22682693)
Toyota did the same thkng with NUMMI.

More than 4 decades later, none of the other manufacturers come close to Toyota still. Why?

Because the change is one in how you understand the world. This is really hard to do, particularly as an organisation. It needs to reinvent yourself from scratch. It means killing your org to live again.

The org will fight it. People that were favored will lose power and standing. They will fight it. Things will get worse before getting better. They will fight it. It will need different way to count success. That will be used against it. It will need new way to trust. They will say it is laxist.

Said otherwise: the current structure work good enough. There is not enough reward and competitive pressure to make the huge opportunity cost of change an accepted strategy.

You can apply that model of change infinitely. Ask yourself why we have not seen huge swath of the web move into Elixir as an example.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by JackMcMack on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @05:56AM (#22683212)
It means killing your org to live again.

This resonates with me.

I've experienced a few "agile transformations". They almost never stuck. The thing that mostly worked was creating teams with a majority of experienced agile devs, people willing to self improve and execute. And when the job is over, it all starts falling apart. Some team members might be believers now, they become disillusioned and leave. Some might have been good followers, but quickly conform to the old ways. You only have a temporary influence on a single team or project. You can't change a company's culture like that, without it hitting rock bottom first. This is very similar to overcoming addiction.

I've long wondered why NUMMI worked where others failed, something I believe is largely ignored in most literature: the factory closed. All the workers were out of a job for several weeks. And in comes Toyota with jobs for many workers, with the hopes of giving every single worker their job back.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by williamdclt on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @08:09AM (#22683788)
I saw an interesting talk by Alistair Cockburn (one of the Agile Manifesto guys), where he said he never once saw a succesful "agile transformation". Just too much resistance to change to have any chance to succeed.

What did succeed, is to create what he called a "new building", meaning a new subcompany (sometimes literally in a new building) with a different (agile) culture, and only letting in people that are interested in making it work. Slowly let the old company die, the new one grow. It takes years and years.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by joshuacc on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @10:22AM (#22684769)
Happen to have a link to a video of this talk?
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by williamdclt on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @10:37AM (#22684906)
Sadly not, I was a question-answer format in a small group at the Paris Digital Lean Summit. It wasn't filmed
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by di4na on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @09:24AM (#22684268)
Regarding Nummi: the same workers work, but it was obvious and well known from the beginning that it was a different way to do things. It was not a change from the previous one. It was a different organisation altogether
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by aahortwwy on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @08:47AM (#22683989)
> Why is this one team not more secretive about their recipe to success?

It's not a secret. Many other organizations (not in F1, by your description) operate this way. It's well understood, but...

> Why aren't more teams copying this?

... everyone on the team needs to buy in to this approach. One selfish team member can slowly ruin the whole thing.

The uncomfortable reality of these cultures is that when someone in the culture is not truly committed, or is putting their self-interest ahead of the team, they need to be removed. A lot of leaders are not strong enough to recognize that and take action.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by bob33212 on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @08:59AM (#22684081)
It is similar to why organizations don't hire 10x engineers only. It is difficult, a lot of work and hiring just one bad manager could cause the 10x engineers to leave or become unproductive. It is far easier to treat engineers like cogs and hire people that check the right boxes and throw them into a standard scrum process.
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by wlesieutre on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @08:23AM (#22683865)
> I'm not at all surprised that this one team is the team that has consistently won the last 6 years in a row.

They also have a budget of close to $500 million, which can't hurt. Ferrari and Red Bull are the only teams that come close to that.

Fourth largest budget is Renault at almost $200 million less.

We'll see if they continue to stack up with the $175 million budget cap that's coming in 2021.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by skrebbel on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @08:52AM (#22684027)
For non-F1-followers like me: I spent 5 minutes on Wikipedia so you don't have to, and "they" is Mercedes, who re-entered Formula 1 in 2010 after a 55 year hiatus, and won every year since 2014. Pretty spectacular!
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by op03 on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @02:12AM (#22682362)
Both strategies are known to work - Carrot and Stick. Why?

Because the psychological Traits and Needs of all humans are not the same.

Most people who build teams have a sense of their own Needs and Traits and pick strategies/team members that align/compensate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_NEO_Personality_Invent...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

There is a distribution of Traits/Needs that you need to be aware of within any population, group, team etc.

If you are not aware of those variations and randomly create groups and try to impose strategy, what works and fails will always remain mysterious.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by MikeAmelung on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @03:26AM (#22682633)
As the other reply kind of hints at, it's a lot easier to do this if you have the absolutely dominant driver on your team. If I was the technical director and we were losing, I'd certainly be like "Lewis, pal, we lose as a team, right?"

And then Lewis would be gone and we would just be losers.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by AmericanChopper on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:16AM (#22683276)
There’s so many reasons for Mercedes success, that the parent comment comes of as being a bit silly. As you mentioned, they have Lewis Hamilton, who a lot of people would argue is the greatest driver of all time. They also have a very clear pecking order, team orders for Bottas to lose to Hamilton are a meme in F1 (“Valtteri, it’s James”). After the season was underway, they really only let them race after Hamilton had secured the drivers championship. Toto’s leadership is certainly very good (which the parent poster is referencing one particular part of), but you also have to remember, that Mercedes have only been dominant for one particular generation of F1 cars (the turbo-hybrid era). The sample size is absurdly small, and if you ask most commentators who’s going to dominate next, most of the would guess Verstappen (or LeClerc), not another Mercedes driver.
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by kqr on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:28AM (#22683315)
> team orders for Bottas to lose to Hamilton are a meme in F1 (“Valtteri, it’s James”). After the season was underway, they really only let them race after Hamilton had secured the drivers championship.

Is this not an extension of "we win as a team, we lose as a team"? Would this be possible with the same consistency in teams where both drivers are in clear competition with each other for the seat next season?

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by AmericanChopper on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @07:08AM (#22683482)
Well I think this is a bad example in general, because unlike most businesses, success is actually a zero sum game in top flight sports. If somebody does good enough to earn a seat, it will always mean that somebody else did bad enough to lose theirs. It’s also not a very faithful characterization of Mercedes. They were seriously considering letting Bottas go last year, it was honestly a surprise that they kept him (and let Ocon go instead).

If you want to see what the same management style looks like with competitive drivers, you can just look at the last time Mercedes had two competitive drivers. That would be in 2016, when Nico Rosberg won the drivers championship with Mercedes. The relationship between Hamilton and Rosberg had become so toxic, that Toto Wolf himself admitted he had no idea how he was going to solve it. It culminated with Hamilton trying his best to hold up Rosberg in traffic in the last race of 2016, because Hamilton needed to keep Rosberg of the Podium if he was going to get the title. You can watch the highlights on YouTube with the team telling him to speed up, while he more or less just refused. The only reason any of that was resolved, was because Rosberg retired after that season.

This story is pretty much repeated in F1 history any time you have two people on the same team competing for the title. Last year LeClerc and Vettel fought so much, and so dangerously on track, that it actually led to both Ferrari drivers crashing into each other and retiring in one race (something which mirrors one of the most controversial crashes in F1 history, when one McLaren teammate crashed into the other at Suzuka in 1989). The entire season was also full of their drivers arguing on the radio about team orders. Then you have the other most dominant driver, Verstappen, who Redbull have been unable to find a suitable teammate for.

To specifically answer your questions, at Mercedes “win as a team” clearly always means “help Hamilton win”. It’s not possible to operate a team where drivers are not fighting for their seat, and history has shown it’s not possible to have a good team culture when both drivers are actually competing with each other for the title.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by HappyRobot on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @12:05PM (#22685870)
Adding to this, Rosberg took advantage of the "win as a team" culture to win his championship. He fought a psychological war with Hamilton where the team refused to take sides. It was the only way to beat Hamilton.

Mercedes had to protect themselves from this and made the smart choice in choosing Bottas as he was well known for a calm and team focused demeanor. With Bottas, Mercedes could further build the team around Hamilton without causing issues between the drivers.

It would've been really interesting to see the team structure if Rosberg returned in 2017. Mercedes dodged a bullet by getting Bottas at the right time.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @10:08AM (#22684636)
Yes let Mercedes hire Verstappen and see how they can keep harmony between Hamilton and Verstappen.
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @10:02AM (#22684581)
It reminds me a little of the time when Berger and Senna were teammates. Two very good drivers but there was no dispute who was the number one and two driver. It’s much easier to keep peace in a team where the hierarchy is clear. It would be interesting if Mercedes hired Verstappen next to Hamilton. I doubt they could keep the peace then.
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by raihansaputra on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @11:47AM (#22685670)
No way. They already learned that having 2 number 1 drivers doesn't work (Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg on 2016 season). They won that season, but if it weren't for the totally superior car, they were on a tight margin. Distributing the winning points to two drivers doesn't work to secure both the Driver's championship and the Manufacturer's championship. There's a reason why Red Bull picked Max Verstappen over Carlos Sainz instead of having both, or why Ferrari had troubles last season with LeClerc suddenly performed better than Vettel.

Is it fair? No. Drivers like Barrichello and Massa never got a title, while arguably they are champion-level drivers. I think Bottas is someone in that position right now.

The other question is would you rather be in Bottas' shoes of being on the top team but the number 2 driver, or like Ricciardo or Hulkenberg which are also top tier drivers but haven't had a clear shot to compete or even the chance to get a podium for the latter. Motorsports (and Formula 1) is a cruel world.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by AmericanChopper on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @03:35PM (#22687743)
> There's a reason why Red Bull picked Max Verstappen over Carlos Sainz instead of having both

Redbull haven’t really resolved this problem though. Max obviously has championship potential, and is their number one driver. But they haven’t managed to find a suitable teammate for him. They need their own Bottas. A driver who is comfortable being the number 2, but talented enough to lock out the front row and consistently get on the podium with Max. They’ve found good personality fits (Albon is perfect in that respect), but haven’t found anybody who is also talented enough to give Redbull constructor potential.

That said, I really like Bottas, and I think it’s sad he doesn’t have a shot at fighting for the championship. His performance at CotA last year was amazing, and it felt great to watch him really race Hamilton (though the team arguably gave Bottas a safer strategy in this case).

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by raihansaputra on Thursday March 26, 2020 @07:51AM (#22692571)
Albon is still really new though. Bottas didn't get to his current form after a few years in Williams. I think Albon has the potential; this year is supposed to be the time to prove it. At least he's much better than Gasly and the team picked Albon over Kvyat. I'm really excited about him. The whole younger squad is really exciting to watch, can't wait for the battle in 3-5 years.
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by AmericanChopper on Sunday March 29, 2020 @04:25PM (#22722379)
Yeah I really hope Albon does well at Redbull. He’s got a very likeable personality, and he’s clearly got the potential at least. His performance at Interlagos was fantastic, it was very sad to see him get taken out by Hamilton. I’m just not sure if Redbull have the patience to foster his talent on the No 1 squad. That’s supposed to be what Toro Rosso is for.
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by Ididntdothis on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @12:18PM (#22686017)
I think Bottas is in a comfortable spot but has to give up his dreams of a title as long as Hamilton is around. Some drivers are ok with that, some aren’t. Ricciardo probably could also have stayed with Red Bull as a very good number two driver but he didn’t want to give up the title dream. Unfortunately he seems to have bet on the wrong team...
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by raihansaputra on Thursday March 26, 2020 @07:48AM (#22692555)
Yeah, and I'm sure he'd like the chance but either he puts everything in for a chance (as Rosberg did and decided he burned out after winning), or take the hit and do a good job for the best team.

Ricciardo made the same move Lewis did, and the delay in the new regulation opens up opportunity for him. How good or what could it be is very uncertain, though. I think he's very unfortunate in timing; I think he would take the chance of the Mercedes seat if he weren't in contract at that time. And if he knows McLaren were moving to Mercedes engine, he might consider that too. Nobody knows what Renault showed him that made him sign though. Or maybe $80M can wipe that pain away..

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by Ididntdothis on Thursday March 26, 2020 @10:06AM (#22693655)
“Or maybe $80M can wipe that pain away.”

It definitely helps :)

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by HappyRobot on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @11:54AM (#22685749)
I believe other teams do copy this, but not in driver pairings. A different F1 example are the pit crews. There's no time or space for blame if a pit stop is messed up. In the first season, Haas has pit stop issues twice in the same race. It wasn't the mechanics that were blamed, but the team principal took it upon himself to diffuse the scenario as the team's failing. This is likely similar across all the team as any doubt or the hesitation for the mechanics would only risk additional mistakes.

Drivers will always be pitted against their teammate though. F1 is technically a team sport, but the real judgement for the drivers is how well they compare against their teammate. Each driver wants to win, that's why they compete.

Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by wmeredith on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @11:05AM (#22685195)
The team in question is Mercedes for those who are curious.
Re:Blameless post-mortems and a just culture (2012) by jiveturkey on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @12:25PM (#22686084)
you are mistaking a drama-mentary as reality