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Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by henrikschroder on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:13PM (#22680507)
“The court system is just going to get flooded with a million of these disputes between tenants and landlords,”

I'm absolutely not a big fan of collectivism, but sometimes, individualism just doesn't work. Sometimes, you have to step in and solve problems collectively. No, it won't be fair, yes it will be one-size-fits-all, no you can't please everyone. Suck it up, buttercup.

Whether you like it or not, we're in this current shit together, all of us.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by wegs on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:29PM (#22680663)
No, there is a one-size-fits-all solution. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbtJGn7ida2IYNgwCFk3Sjhs...

Stop interest on all loans for 90 days. Defer principal on all loans by 90 days. In 90 days, payments start up as before (and just end 90 days later). Same thing bubbles for all contracts. Leases and rents are free for 90 days. Contracts switch from net 30 to net 120 terms. Etc.

You pause the cycle of debt.

It works for home mortgages, small businesses, airlines, and almost everyone else. And it avoids the need for a 2 trillion bailout / stimulus package. It allows much more targeted aid at a fraction of the cost.

It ain't rocket science.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by imtringued on Thursday March 26, 2020 @08:35AM (#22692881)
>It allows much more targeted aid at a fraction of the cost.

Targeted aid is a code word for bailout.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by nostromo on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:31PM (#22680685)
This is a recipe for bank failures and a financial crisis.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by henrikschroder on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @10:08PM (#22681352)
If a huge amount of small and large businesses go bankrupt at the same time, stop paying salaries and fire all their employees, making a huge amount of people unemployed, and stop paying rent, making a huge amount of real estate companies go bankrupt, don't you think we're already in the largest financial crisis in human history?

If we can pause the economy, preserving all employment contracts, lease agreements, loan agreements, etc, then we're in a much better position for restarting the economy once quarantines and lockdowns can be lifted.

But you would rather let everything burn down because existing contracts must be honoured as-is because won't somebody think of the poor bankers?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by zaroth on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @11:09PM (#22681637)
So, for starters, total personal monthly income is $1.4 trillion dollars.

Most people need their monthly salary to survive. We already need several hundred billion dollars just to shore up unemployment insurance funds, which just pay for a fraction of people’s salary.

This has nothing to do with “the poor bankers”. Mostly it had to do with small businesses which make up the backbone of the American economy and which are collapsing at an extremely alarming rate.

The government can’t just press a big magical pause button on the DVR. The government can try to pickup some of the bills, or it can loan money out at good rates, or it can fire cash bazookas directly into people’s checking accounts, but even the Fed can’t just print enough money to single handedly keep the entire economy afloat while legally restricting people from doing business.

As long as everyone has stopped buying anything and everything discretionary, businesses will be failing and unemployment will skyrocket. Unemployment is a massive drag on GDP because consumer spending is the majority of consumption.

GDP of -25% is not just a “tighten the belt and we’re gonna deal with this” type of event. It’s not merely a question of “we have to do this to save lives” because shooting the economy in the gut actually costs lives too.

You put people out of work and into financial insolvency, and their general health is very negatively affected, and some of them will die. Look at the opioid crisis, for example.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by wegs on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @07:04AM (#22683467)
Most people need that salary to survive due to fixed obligations: mortgages, rents, credit card debt, car leases, etc. That's what we need to pause.

Beyond that, you have discretionary spending, which can be cut.

And finally, you have essentials: food, medicine, and similar. That's a tiny, tiny fraction. That's what we need to bail out.

Yes, there will be long-term consequences of lost production, which will shrink our economy a little bit. But that's fundamentally different from debt defaults, bankruptcies, and evictions. Hitting a pause button avoids all of that.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by wegs on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:34PM (#22680705)
Why?

Banks get payments 3 months later. They can also get 0% interest loans from the fed.

Why do they fail?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by imtringued on Thursday March 26, 2020 @08:38AM (#22692896)
You just said there should be no stimulus package. Why did you suddenly change your mind and say "We can shift the problem to the banks and then give the banks a stimulus package"?

It feels very weird. Why does it matter whether businesses or banks receive the 0% interest loans? It's just a shell game. You didn't solve anything but yet you make your own solution sound better.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by 6510 on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @03:57AM (#22682755)
As a whole nothing connects the financial system to the real world. Therefore it cant fail. If the robots take over and humanity goes extinct the financial system will continue to work just fine.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by cosmiccatnap on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:42PM (#22680764)
No, huge tax cuts and cutting regulations that prevent sub prime loans that leave the government incapable of handling a crisis is what causes Banks to fail...
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by adt2bt on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:36PM (#22680723)
Aren’t they also freed from servicing their debts as well? Why does pausing the debt cycle affect them disproportionately?
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by evandijk70 on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @04:25AM (#22682873)
A portion of their debts are to consumers, in checking and saving accounts. Consumers still need to buy food.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by wegs on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:33AM (#22683335)
There's a delay, not a stop. Banks can borrow at approximately 0% from the fed right now.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by wegs on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:36PM (#22680730)
As a side note, a down vote shouldn't be the same as "I disagree." If you disagree, please explain why. So far, I've heard no helpful criticisms. Nor have I heard any reason for the down votes -- if I'm doing something wrong, you need to say what it is, or I'll keep doing it.

If you want an echo chamber, then by all means bump this down to -50 with no further explanation.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:45PM (#22680783)
I downvoted for the “it ain’t rocket science.” These are difficult problems.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by cmurf on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:59PM (#22680872)
Those payments in turn pay for other things. Stopping them, stops everything. Pensions and 401ks, all kinds of commercial paper holding money short term stops, almost all home and commercial property sales stop, companies can't pay their own big bills due to vendors or fulfill order to customers, or can't convert bonds to stocks.

It's too simple of an idea. What you are looking for is the time equivalent of printing money. Right now that's magical, it's a deus ex machina event. It's implausible. You have to innovate it, and until then it's a fantasy.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by wegs on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @09:09PM (#22680951)
> Those payments in turn pay for other things. Stopping them, stops everything.

That's correct. We stop everything for 3 months to get rid of the virus.

Or almost everything.

> almost all home and commercial property sales stop

Have you tried buying or selling a house these days? In most parts of America, you can't -- the registries of deeds aren't open for business with coronavirus. This is already stopped.

> What you are looking for is the time equivalent of printing money

It is like a time-equivalent of printing money. By virtue of the time-limit, it doesn't have nearly the same inflationary pressure. We need to relieve a short-term financial crunch, and the stimulus, zero interest, etc. all do that, but when the crunch is over, that stuff explodes into inflation. This cleans itself nicely.

> It's too simple of an idea

What's wrong with simple ideas?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by mindslight on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @12:07PM (#22685895)
> Have you tried buying or selling a house these days? In most parts of America, you can't -- the registries of deeds aren't open for business with coronavirus.

You don't actually need to immediately record the deed to buy/sell real estate. I believe this used to be the norm back when remote towns would batch up all their new deeds and send them to the county seat by horse.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by bawolff on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @04:11AM (#22682817)
You're stopping payments for a lot of things. I assume the people on the recieving ends of those payments are still expected to buy food somehow? How?

Or are we also expecting that grocery stores provide food on credit that they are not expected to collect on any time soon?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by cmurf on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:38PM (#22680740)
The metric needs to be, equally miserable. The innovation needed, is a misery metric. Once most everyone is equally pissed, that's the solution - doesn't matter how bizarre or ideological is seems.

But of course, the track record suggests the actual solution we get will look more like neo-feudalism.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:45AM (#22683379)
That's a bit romantic don't you think? If society devolves enough to make me completely and utterly miserable, opposed to my baseline misery, then there'll probably be mushroom clouds on the horizons. Whereas some of my friends and neighbors are having panic attacks because they can't go to aruba, or screaming matches with grocery clerks, etc.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by donclark on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:28PM (#22680649)
> "we're in this current shit together, all of us."

So are you saying that we do not have to pay rent either?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by henrikschroder on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @09:58PM (#22681294)
...

No, that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying. Keep paying rent if you can pay rent.

But I understand that it's extremely difficult for some people to accept a solution that's unfair for some individuals, even though it's the solution with the least amount of total negatives. As collective solutions tend to be.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by donclark on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @10:08PM (#22681354)
> "Keep paying rent if you can pay rent."

How in the hell is anyone going to know if retailers or people can actually afford to pay rent?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by henrikschroder on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @10:41PM (#22681528)
You ask them. If they say no, then they can't pay rent.

"OMG everyone is going to totally take advantage of this!"

Not everyone, but yes, plenty of people and business will.

"OMG that's unfair."

Yes, I acknowledged that from the start. The whole point of my argument is that this might still be preferable to the alternative, it might still be better than sticking to what's 100% fair, because collectively we might emerge stronger from this crisis if struggling businesses are afforded leniency, while the rest of us keep paying our bills on time.

But thank you for perfectly illustrating my sidenote on how this way of thinking is completely alien to many Americans.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by bawolff on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @04:14AM (#22682827)
Ok. Im a (small) landlord. None of my tennants claim to be able to pay rent. How am I buying groceries this month?
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by samsonradu on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:45AM (#22683380)
I don't mean to be rude but relying on collecting month-by-month rent from your tenantS to buy your groceries seems like poor financial management.

You've bought an asset which is not returning as expected for the time being, but has for the past n years. What do you expect now, a bailout?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by leetcrew on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @09:43AM (#22684422)
not all landlords are rich and/or have rent as their entire income in normal times. my friend is a "landlord", in the sense that she rents out the spare room in her house to help pay the mortgage. now her entire industry is shut down and her tenant isn't getting paid either. no matter how responsibly they manage their finances, most people can't handle suddenly having multiple sources of cashflow go to zero.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by samsonradu on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:33PM (#22689102)
They can always sell their property and rent for a while to weather the storm. Relative to the tenant, at least they have something to sell.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by bawolff on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @07:46PM (#22689543)
Ah yes, because there are so many people in the market to buy rental properties in a giant economic downturn. Nevermind the reason you are selling is because its impossible to rent out.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by samsonradu on Thursday March 26, 2020 @04:31AM (#22691549)
I'm sure a buyer can be found at the right price, it's called supply and demand.

We wanted a free market for housing and ended up with EUR 500k studios in Paris. Can't people wrap their minds around the fact that house prices also go down?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by lifeformed on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @10:01AM (#22684571)
Is it better if you can't buy groceries or if multiple tenants can't buy groceries?

I bet if you and your tenants got together, you could acquire enough food for all of you.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by true_religion on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @09:19AM (#22684223)
Same way that your tenants who cannot work will buy groceries. Either private charity, savings, or government intervention would have to cover the income gap to keep people alive in this time of crisis.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by bawolff on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @07:05PM (#22689276)
I think that fundamentally what I'm trying to criticize, is the original proposal shifted all the burden from one class of people to another class. And then assumed that the problem just goes away, without having to do anything expensive like the government providing emergency funding. But its not that simple - its not like debt holders can neccesarily just take the hit. They have things they need money for. They have people they employ who need to get paid. Sure, there is a certain amount of a hit that can be taken - but ultimately money has to come from somewhere or your just shifting which class of people are totally screwed by this, which doesnt solve anything.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by pinkfoot on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @04:20AM (#22682850)
I cannot speak for others, but we played open cards - showed each other our company and family finances.

We have come to a compromise that keeps both parties fed.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by op00to on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @05:32PM (#22688708)
Are you seriously a landlord with no cash reserves? What happens if you have an unexpected repair at your property?

You’d buy groceries with your emergency fund. As a self employed person it is your responsibility to do this for yourself.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by bawolff on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:56PM (#22689239)
To be clear, i'm a hypothetical landlord. Not actually a landlord.

> You’d buy groceries with your emergency fund. As a self employed person it is your responsibility to do this for yourself.

Its everyone's responsibility to have an emergency fund. Why is the answer that the landlord should rely on his/her fund instead of the tennant relying on their fund to pay rent?

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by donclark on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @11:59PM (#22681830)
What is this? Another one of your multi-player games?
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by 6510 on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @04:07AM (#22682798)
They will call the bluff and stop paying. Mass evictions probably wont be tolerated.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by WWLink on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @02:53PM (#22687354)
Having acted as a landlord before, and having rented before, the only thing either party can really do is ask nicely and hope for the best.

On either side of the table, I'd hope for the fastest return to an ideal situation.

Luckily my company is doing fine, and I can work from home, so my income is still stable. Hopefully that makes it easier for the guy I'm paying rent to, to be easier on his other tenants that can't afford to pay.

It's one of those "I might need it myself someday" kinda things.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by JMTQp8lwXL on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:22PM (#22680588)
What is the collective resolution? I'm assuming it's either everyone gets free rent, or nobody does, and I'm not sure which is being implied here.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by swiley on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:38PM (#22680738)
I'm able to pay my rent. If me paying mine means the newly unemployed people don't have to during this thing then I would prefer the situation that's unfair toward me.

We really kick the lowest people into the dirt here and the place we do it the most is housing. It makes our economy extremely unstable, not to mention it's pretty unpleasant to know that you're only a couple mistakes away from being in a similar situation and to be around a bunch of people who feel the same way. It doesn't need to be like this, the US is mostly trees and all but the most dense places have lots of room for growth. We've prevented it and now it's time to pay for our mistakes.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by bsanr on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @09:26PM (#22681090)
Americans live in relatively huge houses, with tons of stuff that we don't need, use, or even get any sentimental value out of. I'm not saying we need to transform into Japan - it was truly nice to be able to visit wealthier family and their big houses with their "fk you" foyers and finished basements bigger than any apartment I've ever lived in - but the average American nuclear family does not need more then 2000 square feet (if that), day-to-day. Once you eliminate speculation on grandiose properties - which in turn drives up the prices of your given McMansion or SF bungalow - maybe you can figure out a way to provide everyone with decent, dignified housing that's appropriate for their family size and lifestyle. People like to say that the economy isn't zero sum, nosiree, but it's mighty suspicious how much homelessness rises in cities where apartments go for 7 figures cash, or $3k+ a month in rent.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @06:39AM (#22683355)
This moral grandstanding is not helpful. If you want to talk to about the endemic problems of American housing I'm happy to, after this pandemic has passed. Until then, we all should be focused on solving the immediate problems and helping each other. Pointing fingers at the broken bits and complaining about them distracts everyone.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by HammockTester on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:25PM (#22680627)
As long as you're the one happily shelling out you can reasonably promote that idea.
Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by vkou on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:28PM (#22680650)
What does this mean in this context?

Are we spilling ink for the sake of the owners of these retail spaces? Do you think they are going to be any better off if these retailers just stop paying rent, and go out of business, instead?

Instead of grousing, the landlords should be petitioning for their mortgage payments to be suspended for this time period.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by refurb on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:51PM (#22680825)
What does this mean in this context?

It means it's easy to suggest a solution that costs you nothing personally.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by henrikschroder on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @10:52PM (#22681573)
Oh, we are all going to pay for this crisis, one way of the other.

If burning everything to the ground because pausing the economy is somehow unimaginable, then a lot more people will be unemployed, a lot more businesses will go bankrupt, and to restart the economy a couple of months from now, a lot of tax money will have been spent in unemployment benefits, food stamps, and various stimulus packages and bailouts. That's my tax money being spent, given that I'm keeping my job and my salary.

If a pause means it takes less tax money to get the economy up and running again, to get everyone back on their feet, back in jobs, back to paying rent, back to getting salaries, then that's a good thing for me as well, even though it's "unfair" and "collectivist" and "socialist".

Now, I'm not saying a pause is the best solution I'm not an economist, I have no idea. I'm saying it's a solution, and you shouldn't dismiss it on reflex just because it's a collectivist solution.

Re:U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus c... by vkou on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @10:42PM (#22681533)
Then your response is a non-sequitor - because your criticism can be levied against both the person endorsing that solution, and the person endorsing the status quo.