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Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by grej on Friday March 20, 2020 @01:10AM (#22635114)
Depends on whether you flatten out the growth rate. It won't/can't keep growing like that when everyone is sheltering in place.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by Polylactic_acid on Friday March 20, 2020 @01:21AM (#22635161)
Seems likely. Italy is currently seeing a 13% increase per day while the US is now very close to a 50% increase per day. There are news reports showing beaches and bars in the US are still fully packed. It probably relates the US culture of disregarding expert advice and doing the opposite to "own the scientists"
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by nathanlied on Friday March 20, 2020 @01:42AM (#22635258)
It's not just the US. This happened across countries in Europe as well; Italy had it happen, Germany had "Coronavirus Parties", even. It happens because some people are idiots, and others aren't quite aware of how serious the situation is.

Once reality sets in, only the absolute idiots that don't care for being socially ostracized (or in some cases even legal consequences) will continue that behaviour. And luckily those are normally a minority.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by loeg on Friday March 20, 2020 @03:12AM (#22635655)
The US federal government isn't actually doing much at the top level. Individual states are shutting down at variable times and rates. The beaches and bars are mostly in these slow-moving states.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by gwright on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:03AM (#22644601)
That is because that is how our system of executive administration is designed. It is a federal system with the vast, vast majority of police powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power_(United_States_co... residing in the state, not federal authorities.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by loeg on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:55AM (#22645058)
In ordinary times, yes, the US is a federal system of states with some level of individual state rights. But state power has somewhat eroded over time; federal supremacy is a thing; and there is plenty of precedent for the Fed stepping in during emergencies and war. (And war is a relevant point of comparison because even if this thing goes as well as possible at this point, it's likely going to kill more Americans than any foreign war and probably more than the civil war.)

No, the reason the top level federal government isn't doing much is because Trump is an incompetent idiot who doesn't have a second brain cell to rub against the first. The federal government has the funds and the coordinating agencies (FEMA, CDC, military and national guard) and could be buying masks, ventilators, tests; solving distribution problems; coordinating with states on social distancing and even lockdown/shelter-in-place policy. They did nothing during the early weeks when they knew it was a coming problem and it is not clear how much Pence is doing now.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by gwright on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:29AM (#22647177)
As a matter of law the federal government controls the international borders and inter-state boarders. It is up to the state governments to limit movement within their borders. https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantin...

As it so happens, President trump has been limiting international travel starting all the way back in January.

Why do you think the federal government isn't "doing much" (https://www.usa.gov/coronavirus)?

And what exactly would you have it do that you don't think it is doing?

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by speedgoose on Friday March 20, 2020 @03:21AM (#22635702)
People stop very fast when people they know start to get sick and die.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by Findeton on Friday March 20, 2020 @03:58AM (#22635857)
When that happens, it's too late. Between the incubation period and the time to death it's about three weeks. At a 20% increase per day that means that even if you stop going out at that moment deaths will be multiplied by 46. If the rate is 30%, the multiplier is 247.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by btilly on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:39AM (#22636737)
Not quite that bad.

Current measured growth rates are closer to 15% per day (5 day doubling time). And people's behavior changes not when people die, but when people get sick. Which happens (depending on your sensitivity) only 1-2 weeks after exposure.

But the basic principle still applies. We are trying to buy as much time as we can to ramp up emergency provisions. And are trying to avoid overwhelming emergency rooms. By the time people's behavior modifies through direct experience, it is too late.

Making this concrete I live in Orange County, CA. Population, 3.3 million. Hospital beds, 6600 (source https://www.hasc.org/orange-county). I don't know how many ICU beds, but https://www.accjournal.org/journal/view.php?number=630 suggests it likely is about 6% of the total. So about 400ish.

Now walk that backwards. 400 people in ICU beds probably means 4000 people with symptoms means less than 0.1% of the population with COVID. Except that it is worse than that. We have those beds for normal stuff that goes wrong. They aren't actually empty now.

Long story short, we start piling up excess dead bodies due to lack of capacity long before most of us personally know anyone who actually shows symptoms.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by acqq on Friday March 20, 2020 @10:51AM (#22637956)
> Current measured growth rates are closer to 15% per day (5 day doubling time)

Citation needed. In the US, via Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_t...

   2020-03-17  5656 infected  96 dead
   2020-03-19 11980 infected 172 dead
That's doubling time of 2 days, not 5. When was it 5 days the last time? If that 2 days continues, in two weeks: 1.5 million infected, 22000 dead. Also, the data across the world show only: the typical doubling time once it really starts going is 3 days, never 5, at least without the beneficial contribution of lockdowns:

Italy dead:

   2020-03-16 1809
   2020-03-19 3405
It's 3 days doubling time there, and they started to quarantine municipalities since February 22, and locked down the whole country on March 10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_I...

Netherlands dead:

   2020-03-16  24
   2020-03-19  76
Doubling time faster than 3 days there. Not much of measures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_t...

So "the risky hack" this article is about buys one not more than 3 days under the circumstances.

Speed of deaths is a good indicator because the number of those who die and those who need an intensive care unit are very close.

A lot of countries aren't able to test as much as it would be needed, so the number of "verified cases" which have less serious symptoms tends to be lower than the actual numbers. But those who die and could have been exposed to the virus and have matching symptoms are more consistently tested.

Main point: the US data can't be considered in vacuum, we know much more than US was able to test due to their botched procedures. But across the world, it's nowhere 5 days, as soon as the number of dead is more than a single digit.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by btilly on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:39AM (#22638442)
Epidemiological estimates and projections seem to be based on the 5 day estimate. See https://www.hpnonline.com/infection-prevention/screening-sur... for an example. I am honestly not sure of all the lines of evidence leading to that estimate, but I've seen it used a number of times.

Measuring what is going on by confirmed cases measures ramping out of testing more than the actual growth of the virus. Death figures are likely to be more accurate. But note that we expect it to take 3 weeks before quarantines show up in fatality figures. (A week for exposed to get sick, 2 more weeks before they die.) Therefore Italy shouldn't yet see the benefits of quarantines.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by acqq on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:53AM (#22638572)
What you cite is from: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/s...

topic of which isn't the evaluation of the recorded growth across the world, but to show that lax measures are problematic even using the slower growth rates.

They specifically write just:

"Infection was assumed to be seeded in each country at an exponentially growing rate (with a doubling time of 5 days) from early January 2020, with the rate of seeding being calibrated to give local epidemics which reproduced the observed cumulative number of deaths in GB or the US seen by 14th March 2020."

That's what they use in their model to demonstrate the point.

They never claim it's accurate or quote any sources for that number, because they just use that very "optimistic" value for the demonstration purposes: to show that even with that number, it's not reasonable not to implement serious measures. That's how mathematical proofs are constructed: you construct the lowest bound which doesn't have to be accurate, just to be obviously lower than the actual numbers, and show that even then some assumption doesn't hold.

I'm claiming here that that is not a "current measured rate."

> But note that we expect it to take 3 weeks before quarantines show up in fatality figures.

That's why I've stated about Italy: "they started to quarantine municipalities since February 22." It's not that they let it waiting for "herd immunity" like UK or NL. It was less than 4 weeks ago.

    2020-02-22     2 dead
    2020-03-19  3405 dead
with 3 days doubling time they would have today 2048 dead. It doesn't appear to be possible to be slower than 3 days. With 5 days doubling time they would have now just 128 dead, with 4 days doubling time 256 dead. It's that easy to calculate.

That's the Italian "current measured rate" for a month now.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by rincebrain on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:29AM (#22638342)
At least some of that growth in the US is probably due to increased testing availability, not infection rate, so I'd suspect "actual" numbers of infected in the US on 3/17 were higher than the data showed. But that's dealing with lots of unknowns.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by sp332 on Friday March 20, 2020 @10:53AM (#22637968)
The growth rate is different in different countries. The USA is currently on a 35% slope. http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by btilly on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:24AM (#22638289)
That is growth rate as measured by confirmed cases. However given various restrictions on availability of testing, confirmed cases and real cases are likely to tell very different stories. Given that most countries refuse to test, refuse to test, hit an "oh shit moment" and start ramping up, the confirmed rate that your link uses measures testing more than actual infection rates.

References such as https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/s... have used a doubling time of about 5 days. As https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/10/simple-math-alarming-ans... points out, studies of what happened in Wuhan suggest a real doubling time of about 6 days.

There are admittedly a lot of question marks about everyone's numbers.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by nerdponx on Friday March 20, 2020 @03:35PM (#22640813)
New York's growth rate is going to look terrifyingly high as testing capability ramps up significantly.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by ummonk on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:25PM (#22643123)
It is ramping up significantly, with a corresponding growth rate of confirmed cases. 4 days ago it was approaching 1000. It will probably be 10,000 by tomorrow.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by gwright on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:07AM (#22644621)
There has been a steady drumbeat of warnings to expect that spike, but unfortunately the statistical nuances of epidemiology will be lost on many.
Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by AntonStratiev on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:20PM (#22649129)
The people who are going to die are already in very poor health. The median age of deaths in Italy is 80 from yesterday's data. [1]

Previously it has been communicated that 99% of deaths are to people with existing health problems.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-...

There are two people in my life I expect to die of the virus: my sister who is in her late 20s, with a lifetime history of Anorexia/Bulimia, who is currently in stage 5 kidney failure. Secondly my Aunt, a lifetime smoker, who currently has terminal lung cancer.

Both of these people, speaking personally, are going to die sometime this year. Will their deaths be accounted against the Coronavirus death toll or to their underlying conditions?

Is there any point to shutting down everything for 18+ months so that they can live another few months, doing so under lockdown conditions and general panic, with nobody able to visit them? And at the end of it all, many of the people who care for them will be unemployed.

Re:Risky hack could double access to ventilators by notyourday on Friday March 20, 2020 @09:34AM (#22637358)
I have said this before I will say it again: people in 2020 are visual learners. There needs to be a boat load of citizen journalists posting videos with dying people and sick people on IG/Twitter/TikTok/Tinder/etc for behavior to change.

Hash tagging #coronavirus #wfh on a photo of a table full of food and 65" TV with Netflix makes it sound like a party.