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Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by dang on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:18PM (#22613281)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22612515.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by pengaru on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:14PM (#22612604)
Influenza is a completely different family of virus, COVID-19 is not another flu. The realm Riboviria is where they diverge, which is pretty far up there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronaviridae

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomyxoviridae

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by ghastmaster on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:25PM (#22612673)
I think you mean cold. Flu is caused by various influenza viruses. Covid-19 is a coronavirus. Coronaviruses belong to a family of viruses that along with other families cause the common cold.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by J_cst on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:23PM (#22612657)
This is a dangerous understatement. Please think twice before spreading false information, especially in the current circumstances where misinformation kills for real. Be safe, ciao from Italy
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by treparist on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:09PM (#22612892)
My family still lives in Turin and mom work in hospital ;) So, i think i can write something down: The biggest problem is that C really affect old people. So, yes - old people die...thats terrible, nothing to say. BUT, mom hospital is overcrowded with < 45 years old... Why you ask me? Cause people is went crazy, media, tv, everything. Yee, you will feel it like a cold, yee its a tougher one, but honestly, if you are <60 and can still breath on your own -> just lay in bed, drink more and relax. Thats the only advice for now.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by BuckRogers on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:56PM (#22613157)
> if you are <60 and can still breath on your own -> just lay in bed

That’s the most comforting thing I’ve read so far.

You’re good to relax in bed, until you can’t breathe. No need to panic until then.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by __blockcipher__ on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @11:09PM (#22613243)
If you drop your sarcastic veneer for a sec, I think in context what the GP said is entirely reasonable.

The panic and uproar around covid-19, while justified to an extent, will lead to a lot of otherwise-healthy, anxiety-ridden people to report to the hospital.

As a shitty anecdote, I remember in university getting really sick, where I was sick for 3-5 weeks straight and ny lungs felt scorched (using that word metaphorically, basically they hurt like a bitch). I didn’t go to the doctor because I never would go to the doctor for anything short of a dislocated shoulder, and there was definitely a period of several days where I had the same thought everyone has: “will I ever get better?”.

I did get better.

I know it’s a shitty anecdote, but the point I want to get across is some “normal” colds/strep/whatever that was can be really crippling, but because people aren’t trained to freak out the way they are with this one, a good portion of people will correctly stay home.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by kragen on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:10PM (#22612577)
Please don't use HN to spread misinformation that could cause massive numbers of deaths.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by gjs278 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:29PM (#22612693)
lol if a massive number of people die due to HN misinformation it was probably good that they went
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by ghastmaster on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:48PM (#22612772)
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-e...

>CDC estimates* that, from October 1, 2019, through March 7, 2020, there have been: 22,000-55,000

That's 4,400 deaths per month in the United States on the low estimate. 11,000 on the high.

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situati...

Total worldwide deaths according to the CDC so far for covid-19 is equal to 7426 since the beginning in let's say December to give it the worst rates. That equals 1865 deaths per month.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/flu-bigger-concern-wuhan-virus...

>5 Million Cases Worldwide, 650,000 Deaths Annually (influenza)

That's 54,000 deaths per month for the whole world.

Covid-19 is currently at 3.5% of the worldwide deaths of influenza with 1/4th of the year over.

Hopefully this is not considered misinformation that will cause massive numbers of deaths.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by terraqueous on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:05PM (#22612865)
The CDC also estimates that if measures are not taken against the spread of COVID-19, direct deaths in the United States could range from 200,000 to 1.7 million. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/us/coronavirus-deaths-est...

Few deaths in past months does not mean few deaths in the coming months, because infections spread exponentially.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by heavyset_go on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:16PM (#22612935)
For someone with access to citable stats, you sure seem to have left out the cumulative number of people who get influenza, and the amount of people who are slated to catch the more infectious coronavirus.

Without those statistics, you're comparing apples to oranges when you point to the total number of deaths per year for both diseases.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Cogito on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:02PM (#22612840)
The flu is community spread, and not possible to contain. There are many strains, and immunity to the previous season's flu does not provide immunity to this one.

The new virus can be contained, at least could have been though perhaps it's too late for that. The only thing keeping the deaths so low to this point has been the containment efforts.

The flu does not overrun an entire country's hospital system like COVID-19 has done to Italy.

It is misinformation to blindly compare total deaths between two diseases like you are.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Barrin92 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:08PM (#22612886)
>The flu does not overrun an entire country's hospital system like COVID-19 has done to Italy.

to be fair it certainly can and does. The 2017/2018 influenza pandemic was probably the worst one in a decade, with 35 million infections, 700 000 hospitalizations and 60k deaths, and people for a while were treated in tents and a state of emergency was declared in Alabama, and Southern California and Texas had to turn away patients.

https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patie...

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Cogito on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:20PM (#22612961)
Thanks, those are good examples I hadn't heard of.

From the descriptions there and coming out of Italy it should be clear that COVID-19 is much worse than the worst flu we've seen in a decade.

The only thing keeping deaths low to this point is that it isn't as widespread.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by kragen on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @12:24AM (#22613607)
It seems comparable to the 1918 Spanish flu, which started in Kansas, except that so far it kills old people almost exclusively, not children or people in their prime. Hopefully it won't mutate.

Nevertheless, it's not a flu.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by peterisza on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:17PM (#22612939)
And that's a 0.2% mortality rate, still nowhere near as bad as even the lowest estimates for COVID-19.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Barrin92 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:26PM (#22612992)
That's a different discussion than the question if regular flu seasons can overload the healthcare systems. Yes they can, and we regularly underestimate them.

And I'd actually also disagree that this is 'nowhere near as bad' as COVID-19. In countries like Germany or South Korea the death toll with high rates of testing appears to be somewhere in the 0.2 - 1% range. That's something I would argue is a difference in quantity rather than quality, with the dangers lying in the aggregate disease burden and vulnerable populations in particular.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Cogito on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:30PM (#22613010)
Something I meant to say upthread slightly and didn't:

It seems like the nature of the overloading is different.

In particular, from those reports you mentioned, it doesn't seem like staff had to decide which patients to treat or not.

With COVID-19 we are hearing reports of some patients not being treated because there is not enough capacity (either staff or equipment) and so the death rates can be very high as many people receive inadequate treatment.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by ghastmaster on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:09PM (#22612896)
>It is misinformation to blindly compare total deaths between two diseases like you are.

mis•in•for•ma•tion ► n. Wrong information; false account or intelligence. n. Untrue or incorrect information. n. Information that is incorrect.

I disagree.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Cogito on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:37PM (#22613044)
Misinformation includes misleading information.

Even if a statement is technically correct it can be designed to (or can accidentally) mislead people into coming to the wrong conclusion.

From the start you were advocating the conclusion that this "will do just the same as any other flu" and then compared total deaths to date in support of that conclusion.

The conclusion is misinformed because the comparison is not valid.

For it to be a valid comparison, as others have stated in the thread, we need to compare the projected cases and deaths NOT the current deaths as you have done.

Stating the numbers the way you have, uncritically and without the relevant context, is misinformation because it is misleading.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by ghastmaster on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:48PM (#22613114)
You're logic causes panic that will lead to overwhelmed hospital systems and massive deaths. It is misinformation that should be squelched.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Cogito on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:59PM (#22613183)
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

My point is that you should compare projected number of infections and deaths from COVID-19 to the flu.

If you do, it's clear that this is not just another flu.

I'm not sure what aspect of that will lead to overwhelmed hospital systems and massive deaths.

The advice I've been hearing is that

- if you have COVID-19 symptoms, self isolate (and lots of areas are moving to 'shelter in place' style restrictions in any case)

- if you are in an at-risk population, self isolate

- if you've been in contact with COVID-19, or travelled, self isolate

There is some concern over when to test, mostly because there is a shortage of kits in some places.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by Mountain_Skies on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @09:55PM (#22612804)
Until covid-19 has petered out, the comparisons aren't valid. We're not even sure yet where on the upslope of infections we are. It's way too early to compare it the annual rate of anything else.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by ghastmaster on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:01PM (#22612831)
It's literally just information. I'm comparing current data, which is clearly indicated and sourced.
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by 10-1-100 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:14PM (#22612929)
I think the problem is that the information (and specifically your third source) is misleading.

Note in your first source that the CDC estimates _36 to 51 million_ flu illnesses this season _in the US_. I'm not sure why your third source says "5 million cases".

The flu doesn't originate from a single point geographically every year, as it is already embedded in communities globally.

So, even if the current numbers we have for coronavirus infections are off by an order of magnitude, it is easy to reason that once this coronavirus reaches spread at the levels of the flu (i.e., 30-50 million infections _in the US alone_), the death numbers are likely to be much much higher than the seasonal flu.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by ghastmaster on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:32PM (#22613025)
According to previous CDC link, worldwide known cases and known death numbers give a known mortality rate of 0.041586323. Obviously there are far more cases that are unknown at this point. This would lower the mortality rate.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200303/Analysis-One-sure...

>Lipkin noted that because cases observed early in an epidemic are the most severe, early mortality estimates tend to be high. As more information comes out, the death rates are likely to fall. "We're probably six months out from having a good picture, and when we do I'd guess the mortality will drop dramatically," he said.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by tomrod on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:11PM (#22612906)
It would be like comparing Compact Disc sales from 2016 and 1996. Sure, both are compact discs, but the comparison isn't relevant anymore in the broad context of music consumption. The point is that while the comparison is superficially similar it isn't really supporting any major points beyond "these things are different."
Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by tomrod on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:09PM (#22612894)
We have a flu shot that was partially effective this year. Some years are better than others.

We have no defense against COVID-19, so until herd immunity becomes a thing by social distancing please flatten the curve to keep our health system from being overwhelmed.

Influenza death rate on known cases is about 0.1% or less. Best estimates for Covid-19 are from SK and, to my knowledge, are around 0.6%. But the ICU fills up quick and then death rate spikes.

Re:Tesla is not essential business as defined in the Alameda... by afiori on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:21PM (#22612966)
Even without entering in comparison of the numbers a decisive factor is that we have no proof that there are no long term negative effects, or even that (partial) immunity carries over to the following year as with the flu, or that it will mutate in more unpredictable ways.