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Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by dpc_pw on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:05PM (#22608867)
> If anything now is the time to print a bunch of new money to counteract the existing deflationary forces caused by the coronavirus

It's time to let everyone reckless go bankrupt, and idiots who "could not see this coming" lose their money and jobs.

The business etc. will go bankrupt, restructured and purchased by people who know how to preserve the capital.

The reason why this keeps happening is because of moral hazard. We keep rescuing reckless behavior at all levels of society. Until there's no way to rescue anything, or the rescue package is going to kill the dollar due to its size.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:28PM (#22609187)
yes, but you need to remember that "reckless behavior" was extremely heavily incentivized by central banks across the world that lowered interest rates, way too long. 0% should NOT be the norm (it should be only used in the most dire emergencies). The Feds of the world ran the economy hot for way too long and punished savers (both companies and people) with extremely low intrest rates now we have the result.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:51PM (#22609504)
> ... central banks across the world that lowered interest rates, way too long.

Why "way too long"? Inflation was not a problem so why exactly did rates need to rise to cool things down?

The ECB did in fact raise rates at one point... and the EU recovery stalled. Krugman for one was very critical of raising them too soon, and he turned out to be correct.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by strbean on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:46PM (#22610821)
I think measures like the CPI are a woefully incomplete view of inflation. I'm not sure what would be a good alternative metric, but it seems clear from the stock market average that stock prices have been growing much faster than the historical average for the past 5 years. Unless we have good reason to believe actual growth/productivity has accelerated significantly in that time span, this suggests that things are becoming increasingly overvalued, which only ends in reversion to the mean. Maybe another way of looking at this is that inflation is affecting stocks but not consumer goods for one reason or another.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by ssivark on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @08:50PM (#22612435)
It’s kinda easy to see why inflation is limited to certain sectors — “trickle down” isn’t working! CPI rises only if the money reaches the hands of poor(er) consumers who spend all their money on essentials. But currently the money is being made available largely to large corporations (etc) who can borrow at low interest rates — and they’re choosing to spend on financial assets — which is where we note the “inflation”.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by dpc_pw on Thursday March 19, 2020 @03:53PM (#22630977)
Exactly. I have a blogpost about this https://dpc.pw/my-view-on-macroeconomy
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @07:05AM (#22615301)
> ... but it seems clear from the stock market average that stock prices have been growing much faster than the historical average for the past 5 years.

Where does cash have to go? In Germany/Europe you have a culture of saving, so everyone stashes in "safe" accounts, and so government bond yields are at zero or even negative. Those folks would do better, both financially and for the health of the economy, to go with equities. German/EU governments would do well to spend more as well.

In the US people seem to be more culturally tuned to spending, and is "the" market to invest in world-wide, so a lot of folks are putting their money there. Potentially bidding up prices.

This is why Krugman is calling for a "permanent stimulus":

> OK, if you’re still with me: I hereby propose that the next U.S. president and Congress move to permanently spend an additional 2 percent of GDP on public investment, broadly defined (infrastructure, for sure, but also things like R&D and child development) — and not pay for it.

> The starting point for my argument is the astonishing drop in interest rates over the past few weeks. They were historically very low even a year ago, but at the time of writing the 10-year rate was only 0.76 percent. That’s below the rates on Japanese debt during the Lost Decade:

* https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/opinion/the-case-for-perm...

* https://archive.is/Z2TMK

Borrowing is cheap, so if the US is going to run deficits anyway, instead of 'tax cuts for the rich', there's a lot of infrastructure that's aging that could be rebuilt.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by QuesnayJr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:23PM (#22609889)
Interest rates are close to zero because everybody wants to save and nobody wants to borrow. It's the working of supply and demand.

Savers deserve nothing special. Nobody is owed a safe investment vehicle with a positive return. If the market dictates that you have to pay people to take your money and hold it for you, then that's how it should work.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:28PM (#22609956)
i agree with that, if it were determined by market forces. But, when the feds of the world are subsidizing low rates and flooding printing money to buy up bonds, that's not the workings of supply and demand.

I mean, it's like if you have a bananna stand, and the gov prints billions of dollars to buy banannas on the open market, and now you have to sell your bananas for 5c a piece.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by QuesnayJr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:43PM (#22610168)
If the government printed billions of dollars to buy bananas, it would show up in prices all around the economy as the money circulated.

At full employment -- which we were at up until a week ago -- the only thing flooding the market with money can do is cause inflation. We didn't have an inflation, and interest rates were still incredibly low.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by vikramkr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:19PM (#22609046)
Nobody could have seen this one coming. People thought a recession is coming soon, but not like this, where the economy is basically shut down to prevent transmission of a pandemic.

Hopefully people have insurance to protect against some of this, but a restaurant owner that didn't plan for their community being shut down by a pandemic within a couple weeks of the first cases in town hitting the news wasn't being reckless

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by siscia on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:31PM (#22609237)
Nono sorry but I can't agree.

In my very limited understanding the price of stocks were way to high already. The virus is just the proverbial drop, it is not the cause.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by vikramkr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:32PM (#22610691)
You're saying you don't agree, and then agreeing with one part of what I said without addressing the core of it. Yes people could anticipate that stocks will drop, but stocks are not the economy. a recession isn't about stock portfolios going down, it's about GDP decreasing. What does a restaurant having to close because of a public health countermeasure have to do with a hedge fund anticipating that stocks might go down?
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:35PM (#22610066)
What do does the stock market have to do with restaurants becoming suddenly non-viable?
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by jsanford9292 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:16PM (#22609822)
You can argue that the coronavirus is an unforeseeable event, and I would agree. However, in economic terms, this virus will likely translate to a 2-3 quarter demand shock (softening of demand). Any well-managed business should have a plan in place for weathering a 2-3 quarter demand shock.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by vikramkr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:36PM (#22610725)
There's a difference between adapting to different forms of demand and what you would do in a traditional recession versus your customers not being allowed to visit you because of government intervention. There's nothing for a restaurant to do here to respond to this particular kind of shock. Sure, you could sell through doordash etc, but setting that up and building a remote customer base was not a risk mitigation strategy 3 months ago - it was an expansion opportunity.

And demand shock isn't the extent of it. How many companies could reasonably have been expected to anticipate that their employees will have to work from home? Remote work isn't an option for everyone (good luck remoting into a wetlab), and some companies have built cultures that thrive on people coming into work to meet employees face to face, find opportunities for teamwork and innovation etc. This is a fundamental set of behavior changes, not just a simple demand shock.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by daxorid on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:26PM (#22609159)
Nobody saw the Japanese coming in 1941, either.

And yet, millions of Americans sacrificed, liquidated their businesses or shifted them to a war materiel production footing, changed jobs, bought war bonds, etc. Tens of thousands of diners and clothiers closed their doors in 1942, and Americans were largely happy to do it for the greater good.

This is precisely the opposite of what is occurring now - demands of bailouts, monetization, handouts, 50+ person St. Patrick's Day parties still going, bitching about having to learn how to cook, etc. A complete and total unwillingness to accept even a modicum of pain or sacrifice.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by vikramkr on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:42PM (#22610776)
There was enormous government intervention - the military industrial complex basically revitalized the entire economy.

And America didn't even want to join until we were attacked first, even with the threat the nazis posed.

This was all happening in the middle of the new deal, one of the most significant, major government bailouts in all of american history, fundementally defining america as a welfare state.

And what do you call the huge amount of sacrifice by employers taking lowered productivity by sending workers to be remote? Companies that have declared they'll continue paying workers even if business gets shut down? What do you call the enormous social effort to get people to understand social distancing and flattening the curve? Did the populace even know what those terms were a couple weeks ago? What about the thousands of students packing up and going home, evacuating campus while their graduation ceremonies that they've been looking forward to for 4 years are cancelled? And do you seriously think that in all of america during world war two, nobody was a bad person that didn't accept pain or sacrifice, or even actively make things worse? What about jsut a few years before int he spanish flu when government stupidity led to the streets of philadelphia being filled with corpses because people didn't want to call off a parade? What about all the nazi sympathizers and eugenecists in the US that supported hitler? If your bar for "society is just and moral" is that literally no idiots hold a saint patricks day parade out of 360 million people, we've never been at that bar. The only constant through history has been people with superiority complexes on the side moralizing about how people used to be so much more moral (just like themselves of course) in the good old days, and how much society has decayed today.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:42PM (#22610163)
Wasn't there a bunch of huge government intervention during WW2?

Businesses shifted to materiel production because they were told the have to, no?

So it seems fair that people are demanding leadership now too, no?

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:31PM (#22610006)
> It's time to let everyone reckless go bankrupt, and idiots who "could not see this coming" lose their money and jobs.

That's definitely one perspective.

How long can you sustain yourself after sudden and sustained loss of income?

One issue with a bunch of broke and homeless people is that a fair portion of them tend to be young males, who tend to have a bit of a penchant for violence.

How long do you think you can defend your hoard of cash and food against looters?

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by jsanford9292 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:13PM (#22609783)
100% agree. It is painful in the short-term but if we rescue these companies, they will continue to be reckless and will need more rescuing in the future.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by asdff on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @10:39PM (#22613056)
It seems good in principle but in practice isn't so neat. With healthcare tied to employment in the US, people could literally die if they lose their jobs.