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Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:48PM (#22607762)
> So why not just issue dividends and avoid the downsides?

As another replier pointed out: dividends create a tax event if the shares are held in a taxable account (in US: not IRA, not 401(k)).

Sometimes people (pensions, trusts) don't want those types of events and would rather choose when to invoke tax events by selling only when they need to for income purposes.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by AznHisoka on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:57PM (#22607911)
But so what if it creates a taxable event? Let's put aside what is good for you in the short-term, for a second.

If a company does buybacks, and even borrows money for them, it might boost their stock in the short term, but it doesn't make their company better long-term, because they aren't investing that money into R&D, and it puts them in a possible cash crunch in the future (ie airlines today).

As a thought experiment, what if instead of the company buying back stock, it's the US government. What if they decide to spent $500 billion buying 10% of every stock out there, instead of giving $1000 to every American citizen b/c of the virus. The first benefits people in the short-term, and doesn't create a taxable event. The second benefits people in the long-term, but might be a taxable event.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by travisjungroth on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:34PM (#22608423)
You're comparing buybacks to everything else. The person you were replying to was just answering why buybacks are now more popular than issuing dividends. The overwhelming reason is taxes.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by jsight on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:38PM (#22610108)
I think his point is that buybacks should be no more relevant than dividends. This pop-culture meme that "dividends are irrelevant" is not unique to dividends at all.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by colinmhayes on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:48PM (#22608619)
Companies exist to create value for shareholders. That is done via dividends or buybacks. If companies do neither and aren't in a growth stage like amazon was investors would get pissed and there would probably be a hostile takeover. Shareholders prefer buybacks because of the tax advantage.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:57PM (#22608761)
> That is done via dividends or buybacks.

Nope, dividends (and buybacks) are irrelevant: only total return matters:

* https://www.pwlcapital.com/the-irrelevance-of-dividends-stil...

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by colinmhayes on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @06:43PM (#22611379)
The amount the company pay shareholders, and what people believe the company will pay shareholders, is what defines a companies price. If the a company never pays dividends or does buybacks its value will plummet. It's idiotic to say well dividends and buybacks are irrelevant: only total return matters because future dividends and buybacks are the only factors that play into total return.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @07:19AM (#22615378)
> If the a company never pays dividends or does buybacks its value will plummet.

AAPL went public in December 1980. It paid dividends from 1987 to 1995. It then restarted in 2012. Steve Jobs returns to Apple in 1997. Somehow I see AAPL rising in value during its non-dividend paying years.

AMZN when public in May 1997, and has never paid a dividend. AMZN has done some share buybacks in its history, but has not since 2012. Somehow I see AMZN rising in value.

See also the history MSFT: somehow it has had a good total return despite not doing buybacks or dividends for most of its existence.

There is no explanatory power in dividends or buybacks when it comes to stock returns:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_investing

* https://www.pwlcapital.com/the-irrelevance-of-dividends-stil...

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by colinmhayes on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @11:38AM (#22617791)
The value of an asset is how much it will pay out. If a company never pays its shareholders deciding instead to burn profits it becomes worthless. Apple has value because people believe that at some point in the future apple will decide to give its hundreds of billions of dollars in cash back to investors. Amazon was in a growth phase which is why investors were/are ok with profits being reinvested. Shareholders would not allow that strategy to continue indefinitely. Eventually they've got to see a return.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:02AM (#22626331)
> The value of an asset is how much it will pay out.

No, the value of an asset is how much you will get for it.

Steve McQueen's 1968 Mustang Fastback from the movie Bullitt has neither dividends nor buybacks, but it was auctioned in January 2020 for US$ 3.4M.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullitt

Paul Newman's personal "Paul Newman" Rolex Daytona sold for US$ 17.75M:

* https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/paul-newman-rolex-daytona-...

> Eventually they've got to see a return.

They can see a return at any point: sell your shares for more than you bought them for. Boom: capital returns.

Dividends do not matter:

* https://canadiancouchpotato.com/2011/01/18/debunking-dividen...

A dollar in your pocket is a dollar in your pocket regardless of whether it came from dividends or sell your shares:

* https://www.moneysense.ca/magazine-archive/the-income-illusi...

You are performing what is called "mental accounting":

* https://ritholtz.com/1982/11/explaining-investor-preference-...

* https://www.etf.com/sections/index-investor-corner/21413-swe...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_accounting

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by MiroF on Thursday March 19, 2020 @10:07PM (#22633866)
Chiming in here after reading this entire thread to say that you are definitely missing the point of the above commentator.

"the value of an asset is how much you will get for it."

and the price of an asset is an estimate of its value. projection of future dividend/buybacks is an important part of determining that value. the idea that its irrelevant to pricing is ludicrous.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:53PM (#22608700)
> If a company does buybacks, [...] because they aren't investing that money into R&D [...]

False choice: a company can do R&D and do buybacks (or dividends).

The capital return is for excess cash that has no internal use. AAPL spent US$ 4.2B (7.9% of revenues) on R&D and had a dividend.

Sometimes there's a limit to how much you can do: companies have a finite number of employees after all, and there are only a finite number of projects that you may be able to handle at one time.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by amiga_500 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:32PM (#22608390)
They should remove that "choice" from them and make them pay their taxes on dividends.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @02:48PM (#22608611)
When a share buyback occurs the seller creates a taxable event for themselves through capital gains.

It's just buybacks are considered 'better' because the event is the choice of the seller, and occurs when it is for them. A dividend is 'thrust' upon a shareholder whether they want it or not. (And not investing in dividend-paying companies can be a non-starter: the company in question may be quality one that is worth owning (regardless of dividends, or buybacks)).

The problem is not buybacks or dividends: it is (a) possible executive chicanery, and (b) a lot of the general public not having the means / spare cash to get their foot in the door in investing.

Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by amiga_500 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:01PM (#22608813)
How many people are reeling from dividend taxable events, and do we really need to look after them? Can't they just plan ahead? I'd bin buybacks and let these guys plan ahead.
Re:Stock buybacks are dangerous for the economy by throw0101a on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:06PM (#22608889)
Hard to know: pensions, trusts (private or for foundations), you indirectly by holding an index fund (the fund handles it on your behalf, but it can still create a drag on returns).