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Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by gambler on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:11PM (#22607223)
By some strange coincidence maintaining a working web browser became a task that only Google can do "properly". Microsoft gave up. Firefox is struggling. Doing something from scratch is insanity.

So here we are. A website choke-full of people who constantly post about modulariy, protocols and advanced type systems, yet sheepishly accept that a browser with its zillion unrelated features is a giant, tightly coupled blob that cannot be tackled by anyone except an ubercorp like Google.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by stjohnswarts on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @03:46PM (#22609445)
This is very true. Google goes off cowboy coding and says "well we're the big dogs now, and what we say goes" and think everyone has to follow. They don't care about standards, they care about being the last person standing because then they can do what they want to your browser and what goes in your eyeholes.
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by close04 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:54PM (#22610311)
They can do it because they have the market share and are the standard for all practical purposes. When MS had the market share they were able to do the same. And I'm sure Mozilla would not look like they're struggling maintaining the browser if they had a commanding lead that made them the standard.
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by cmroanirgo on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:52PM (#22610284)
How do you mean that Firefox is struggling? It is not my experience this is so. Everyone around me is ditching Chrome for Firefox.

Firefox is also ahead in a few areas too: containerisation & privacy. It's also now the default browser on a few oses.

To me this does not indicate struggling at all.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by SEJeff on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:20PM (#22610576)
https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share

Chrome: 65.54%

Firefox: 4.58%

Perhaps your sample size of people around you is too small?

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by kybernetikos on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:32PM (#22610694)
You might well be right, but I, along with lots of other firefox users run extensions like NoScript which blocks 3rd party javascript unless explicitly whitelisted, so I expect a much higher proportion of firefox users probably don't show up on analytics packages (which is how statcounter stats are generated). DuckDuckGo Privacy essentials plugin also blocks statcounter, as I'm sure do many other privacy related plugins.

Even if you are a firefox user who doesn't use third party plugins, firefox itself will block statcounter if you have enhanced tracking protection turned on. I couldn't find a similar setting in Chrome.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @07:00PM (#22622368)
Unless you're spoofing your User-Agent string, servers still know what browser you're using. You don't need to be running client-side analytics scripts for browser market measurements.
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by kybernetikos on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @07:09PM (#22622459)
Sure, but that's not how statcounter or most advanced analytics packages work.

Your browser doesn't make a request to the analytics server if you're blocking it, so while the content server might know the user agent, the analytics server generally doesn't.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by w0m on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @10:53AM (#22617280)
I'd think it's a fairly safe bet that noscript users aren't a statistically significant part of total web users
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by hvis on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @06:05PM (#22611026)
The marketshare might not be great, but it's doing just fine technology-wise. No problem in "maintaining a working web browser" there.
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by SEJeff on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @06:10PM (#22611076)
Oh the tech in firefox is amazing, I'm just pointing out the marketshare is pretty lopsided for Chrome over Firefox.

It isn't as though there is actually a mass defection from Chrome to Firefox outside of a very small number of people.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by toper-centage on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @03:41AM (#22614450)
How many people are 4.5% of the Internet though? Would you close a project because it only has a couple hundred million daily users? Would you cal it a failure?
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by to11mtm on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:04PM (#22610405)
My understanding is that they still struggle from a finance and ops perspective. Doesn't matter how good your product is if you can't keep the doors open...
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by pjmlp on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @02:33AM (#22614183)
Firefox has long stop being a requirement on the acceptance criteria for Web project delivery.

I keep testing it, because it has been my favourite browser all the way back to Netscape days.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by nonbirithm on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @06:38PM (#22611336)
Web browsers seem to be the refutation of the "if you don't like it, fork it" sentiment of OSS. If it were nearly any other project people wouldn't be strongly reiterating that using such a fork is irresponsible and dangerous. It mostly seems to be because nobody believes it's even possible for Pale Moon to keep up with the rapidly changing web standards, because not enough people care about it. All the development power is concentrated on the bleeding edge, things are moving rapidly, and this isn't solvable by asking for volunteers. Sure, all of the important code is in the open for anyone to contribute to, but it doesn't matter what your vision of the perfect open source web browser is if you can't get enough people to help work on it. Unlike 99% of other OSS projects, browsers are just too conplex, and their features are added by large committees who decide what's most important to add.

Even though the major browsers are open source, the significant developments in the web platform and the code changes necessary for them are practically impossible to implement by an average developer. They're decided on outside the general OSS community. You simply have to have a large team to be able to keep up. It feels way different than just contributing to less significant projects on GitHub with fewer maintainers. OSS doesn't imply the people maintaining things mostly move forward with things between themselves and have goals set by larger organizations outside the general community, but with browsers it can happen.

I don't think there's any real solution to this. The alternative was to deliberately limit the browser featureset while it was still small, but now all those features will never go away. And many of them provide enough benefit to both developers and users. It's not at all that adding them was a net negative if it really meant only corporations can implement them successfully. The complexity is probably an unintentional and unavoidable byproduct due to the sheer number of features.

I'm starting to view browsers as complicated operating systems in themselves, like the Linux kernel, which has its own significant developer culture and massive codebase. How much can you simplify such a thing while providing all the features people want? It's a tough question.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by salamander014 on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @01:15PM (#22607287)
Web browsers became what operating systems were 20 years ago.
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by AgentME on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:10PM (#22609736)
But with great security sandboxing by default, with multiple interoperable open-source implementations, built on open standards, and cross-platform and not bound to any specific machine architecture.

Imagine downloading dozens of different unsandboxed apps every single day on a classic operating system. You'd get so many viruses (and just broken software that breaks or slows down your system) doing that. But now we can do that safely in browsers with (web) apps. That's amazing.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by jfkebwjsbx on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:05PM (#22610413)
> But with great security sandboxing by default, with multiple interoperable open-source implementations, built on open standards, and cross-platform and not bound to any specific machine architecture.

All that applies to operating systems and has been like that for decades.

> You'd get so many viruses (and just broken software that breaks or slows down your system) doing that.

That is simply false, and if you can prove it, there is recognition/money waiting for you.

> But now we can do that safely in browsers with (web) apps.

No, bugs are still a thing the same way they are for operating systems.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by untog on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:07PM (#22611625)
> All that applies to operating systems and has been like that for decades.

Windows has had "great security sandboxing" for "decades"? Are you sure about that?

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by jfkebwjsbx on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:00PM (#22632675)
Who has talked about Windows?

Anyway, Windows has had a proper kernel since Windows NT, 20 years ago.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by AgentME on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:12PM (#22611670)
What operating systems are you talking about? I'm considering popular operating systems as they're used by end users that are downloading and running applications on their own machines, and I was mostly considering ones that existed 20 years ago. I'm not thinking just of what the OS's kernel technically supports, but the full experience of how it guides users to use it. All of my points go for Windows, MacOS (with apps downloaded outside of the app store), and desktop Linux, and half of my points still apply to modern mobile operating systems (iOS and Android).

If you told an arbitrary Windows user to try a game/app you made, and you link them an EXE file, then at a surely 99%+ chance, if they run it, they're going to do it in the default unsandboxed way that exposes their files on the computer to the executable, and gives your executable the chance to hook itself in persistently on their system. It may be technically possible to safely sandbox arbitrary applications from accessing all your user files in Windows by using special tools or by creating a user account per app, but the operating system does not guide users to do that, there's a ton of gotchas, and basically no one does that. I feel pretty confident labelling that as not "great security sandboxing by default".

>>But with great security sandboxing by default, with multiple interoperable open-source implementations, built on open standards, and cross-platform and not bound to any specific machine architecture.

>All that applies to operating systems and has been like that for decades.

Android is the only OS I can think of that almost ticks all of those boxes, but it still falls short. There aren't multiple separate popular/well-supported implementations of it. Its code is open, but by "open standards" I was referring to the whole decentralized standards process the web has; in Android, Google adds, deprecates, and discontinues APIs without any outside input. In the web, browsers generally only introduce browser-specific APIs in the short term and work towards unifying their APIs with other browsers. It's super rare for anything that makes it through the standards process to ever be removed; browsers prize backwards compatibility of standardized features far more than any comparable platform. Android apps generally aren't usable on non-Android devices; if you point an arbitrary Windows user or an iPhone user at an Android app, they won't be able to run it, at least not without some special expertise.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by jfkebwjsbx on Thursday March 19, 2020 @07:18PM (#22632812)
So you are changing goal posts now into the "user experience" (or something like that).

It was never a design goal of operating systems to assume a binary that you yourself ask to run is malicious. That makes no sense at all. And that is still the case nowadays.

It is the "Web" that brought us the "amazing", truly wonderful idea of running non-signed code on the fly. And, in Web's wisdom, instead of properly implementing sandboxing and using the operating system facilities for that, browser vendors decided to do a half-assed job. Then they realized how a bad idea that was (shocking!), and they have been patching holes of all kinds since then (and reimplement everything that was already there in operating systems, too). The last bits are the WebAssembly and WebGPU wonders.

And no, I was not talking Android. At all. If you study computing history, you will realize "decentralized standards" and "several implementations" are not something that first appeared with the "Web". We are talking the 80s here. Even earlier for some stuff.

So, please, if you have not studied the past, then do not claim what you know is the beginning of everything.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by seanhunter on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:47PM (#22610831)
How many good web "working" browsers has there ever been at one time? I submit it has pretty much always been one. That is there has always been a single browser that could browse the web really well and everything else has kind of sucked because it was poorly supported by content producers and has suffered technical limitations.

Since I've been using the web it has been: Mosaic, then Netscape Navigator then still netscape for me but a lot of the web shifted to IE, then Mozilla or ie depending on platform, then Chrome

...there hasn't failed to be competition (ie people have tried) but they have failed to get traction.

Meanwhile the complexity of the web and its underlying protocols has increased a lot, user expectations have shifted from static page viewing to running all manner of apps in the browser, and necessarily browsers have become more and more complex.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by thewebcount on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:15PM (#22611692)
Over the years I've used Mosaic, Navigator, IE, Cyberdog, iCab, Safari, and Firefox. There were others that I never tried like the original Opera before they became another Chrome fork. They were all capable in their day, and overlapped other capable browsers. The only consistent issues I ran into were websites that assumed everyone was on Windows (I wasn't) and running IE 6.
Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by asrt on Wednesday March 18, 2020 @05:31AM (#22614914)
10 years ago you could safely use Firefox (Gecko), Chrome (Webkit), Konqueror (KHTML), Opera (Presto), Internet Explorer and small browsers like Lynx.

Today only Blink and Gecko remain. And for some reason web developers want Gecko to dissapear.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by pas on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @05:33PM (#22610696)
Well, the browser market is, simply put, in a state of complete fucked up-ness for the past two? IE6 was released in 2001, so yes, two decades. there was a brief period of huh, thigh might finally be okay when Firefox launched, and when MS finally - literally - buried IE in 2010, but that did not last long.

That moment was never a stable equilibrium. Too few participants in the market. Too much money in it indirectly, so Google gives it away for free. This of course absolutely makes it impossible for a real market to emerge where someone pays for the browser tech itself directly.

Re:Please consider not adopting Google WebComponents by untog on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @07:05PM (#22611603)
> By some strange coincidence maintaining a working web browser became a task that only Google can do "properly". Microsoft gave up. Firefox is struggling.

In what way is Firefox struggling? And you didn't mention Apple, who seem very capable of maintaining Safari.

The "strange coincidence" phrasing makes it sound you're saying Google engaged in some kind of clandestine conspiracy. I think it's pretty clear that they wanted to make the web a more capable platform and I'm personally glad they did. Imagine if everyone was required to create a native app on Windows, Mac, iOS and Android to reach all their customers. It would be a nightmare. Google Docs alone is enough demonstration that this is something people want.