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Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by woah on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:06PM (#22569993)
The concept that data caps are somehow uniquely unjust is dumb. Bandwidth is a scarce resource, like seats on a train. Nobody gets mad that the train company charges per ride instead of only selling monthly passes. Be mad that your ISP has a monopoly and charges too much. Don’t be mad about a pricing scheme that is completely reasonable if the prices involved are fair.
Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by robcohen on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:10PM (#22570024)
I would agree with you if there were evidence to support your claim, but there is not.

Actually there is evidence to the contrary. https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2013/02/cable-companies-make-9...

The truth is fiber bandwidth is cheap.

Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by listsfrin on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:13PM (#22570058)
There's lots of evidence that internet is cheap. Too bad we don't have those ISPs to provide it. Have you ever thought how hard it is to dig a 50m hole in the ground to put fiber in it?
Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by StillBored on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:57PM (#22570377)
It can be a lot easier than digging trenches. Where I lived I've watched various google & TW contractors running fiber on existing utility poles. It surprised me how fast those guys can move, I'm talking a couple guys and a truck can probably do a few miles a day. Last time I saw it, they had a couple trucks doing some prep work ahead of a guy literally walking along under the cable pulling that spinner thing. They had wired from the office building I was in, down the road a couple miles, by lunch.

(random youtube video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMjCvMxp-M

Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by listsfrin on Friday March 13, 2020 @04:02PM (#22570416)
Most people move fast if they are paid accordingly.
Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by to11mtm on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:54PM (#22570362)
I have thought about that problem a -lot-, actually. It used to be my job; determine the best route from a cost standpoint, draw it up, and then convince everyone to let you do it. (And thus began my love for LISP...)

You don't dig 50m into the ground, unless you were referring to the length and not the depth. But if you did mean depth, I've done designs where the dig depth was under 4 feet. Usually this involved either special products for purpose (Look up Vertical Deflecting Conduit) or literally just a straight trench along a state highway. (Not gonna comment on the security of that practice...)

But if you meant 50m in distance off the backbone, you're right. because that last 50M to a residence -is- the hard part in a lot of cases. That's why one of the things negotiated in a lot of franchise agreements (which range between a permission to build all the way to a locally sanctioned monopoly) includes is a 'minimum homes passed per mile'. Which basically states that if a route passes at least X homes in Y distance, the Cable co cannot charge a prospective customer for the buildout to their residence.

Doing the 'last mile' is the most expensive part of any network.

One might start to ask if this is part of why these Cable cos are so hyped on the 5G; It makes it possible for 'fringe' customers to still be offered wireless products.

What the Tele/Cable cos did with all of that federal grant money in the early 2000s and with the stimulus packages resulting from the 2008 recession was build up their backbone structure substantially. Many of the projects I did were designed to specs along the lines of 'Go up to the next 48 count interval, then double that.' So if we needed 28 fibers to feed a system, we'd put 96 in the ground in that case.)

Which means that rather than use that stimulus money to build out more of those last miles, in most cases it instead went into revenue stream of fiber leasing. Many of the projects I worked on involved Cable companies leasing that dark fiber they built up to the cell carriers for capacity in the rollout to 4G.

Bonus points because in most cases they weren't even doing any multiplexing on the fiber (something that could be done by adding additional equipment but not having to replace any fiber.)

Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by monocasa on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:42PM (#22570268)
After we the taxpayers paid them $400B to cover that expense, and the telecomms pocketed it, I have the world's smallest violin to play for this particular argument.

https://nationaleconomicseditorial.com/2017/11/27/americans-...

Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by jariel on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:44PM (#22570285)
This is a bad reference that completely misrepresents the economics of the situation.

The unit cost of bandwidth is obviously very low, that's not where the costs come in for ISPs. To suggest that Verizon is on 97% margins while ignoring all of the other costs is to promote financial illiteracy.

If ISPs were actually doing 97% net margins, they'd be the 10x bigger than Google.

The surpluses are in fact in high tech companies like Google and Facebook - they are the ones with 'massive margins' wherein there's obviously more opportunity for competition.

There's probably an economic case for pricing alteration, but gross misinformation is not going to help.

FYI: VZ's actual income statement [1]

[1] https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/vz/financials

Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by jfengel on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:32PM (#22570195)
The lifting of caps in a crisis suggests that it's not a scarce resource. If they can lift caps in an emergency, why can't they lift them permanently?

Perhaps they can make a case that they're borrowing resources that they'll have to pay back, or causing degradation in ways that will cost them later. But it doesn't seem reasonable to say "we just don't have the available capacity" when clearly they do.

Re:Coronavirus could force ISPs to abandon data caps forever by fortyseven on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:09PM (#22570023)
Completely disagree. There are software solutions for bandwidth issues, such as throttling, that don't require putting the burden on customers.