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Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:45PM (#22563990)
The problem is determining what determinism determines and how it determines it. And that's a precondition before you can even consider superdeterminism.

There is nothing in classical physics that suggests the universe is deterministic on cosmic scales. There's plenty in physics which suggests it isn't.

If you want to propose any form of determinism, be it superdeterminism, a bulk universe, or any of the other popular variations, you have to start by proving that causality is infinitely precise and absolute. Because otherwise your causality is partly random and therefore not truly causal at all.

Our experience of causality suggests that real measurements have limited precision, and predictions can only be made on limited timescales.

So anyone who is proposing superdeterminism is claiming that this can be fixed - by hidden variables, with noise-free super-realistic precision, which allow a universe-wide predictive horizon.

Free will is a side issue here, because the problem doesn't go away even if the universe has no observers.

The problem isn't whether free will hides super-predictive hidden variables, it's whether it's plausible that super-predictive hidden variables exist at all.

If you believe they do, you have a first-order universe in which these mysterious entities operate with effectively infinite precision behind the scenes, to create a second-order universe which has limited precision in practice.

Of course that may be happening. But it seems like quite unlikely.

Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by The_rationalist on Thursday March 12, 2020 @10:05PM (#22564086)
You believe that magic ad-hoc random variables are more plausible? And that somehow for whatever non-causal (so magic) reason they follow the same probability distribution? This is clearly epistemologically weaker, but seduce more the wishful thinker mind.
Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by birdyrooster on Friday March 13, 2020 @12:54AM (#22564852)
I think for these people the detail just doesn't matter to them. They see near random behavior which is currently impossible to model and they shrug their shoulders and call it a magic, ad-hoc random variable.

And to a degree, they have a point: Does it really matter if we can predict the exact time and location of an alpha particle as is exits a black hole as hawking radiation? What good does modeling this phenomenon accurately give us?

Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by zelphirkalt on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:05AM (#22565356)
At some point all that "nah what's the advantage of knowing that exactly?" would pile up and we throw away to many questions of how things work, limitting progress. I think that these kind of things are what scientists want to know. "We" want to know everything and how it works, no?
Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by h5rehnarhber5g on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:10PM (#22564383)
> you have a first-order universe in which these mysterious entities operate with effectively infinite precision behind the scenes, to create a second-order universe which has limited precision in practice

There are analogues to this in mathematics, for example, our formulation of the Fourier transform has limited precision but the physical phenomenon it relates to has no reason to be limited.

Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by jerf on Thursday March 12, 2020 @11:39PM (#22564514)
The limitations of the Fourier transform are intimately tied to the uncertainty principle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBnnXbOM5S4 Reality does appear to be limited by the limitations of the Fourier transform.
Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by GoblinSlayer on Friday March 13, 2020 @07:21AM (#22566386)
Not so fast. The uncertainty principle has narrow conditions outside which it doesn't apply. If you don't satisfy them, you can game the whole system and measure anything you want.
Re:Superdeterminism may help us overcome the current crisis ... by jerf on Friday March 13, 2020 @11:14AM (#22567894)
Did you watch the video?

If you can "fix" what that video describes, you'd better start preparing your Fields medal acceptance speech. That you can "get around" it sometimes doesn't remove the underlying math.