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Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by meowface on Monday March 09, 2020 @04:55PM (#22529704)
Certainly seems odd, but it's not like the guy's dead or something. First, it was stored in a VeraCrypt encrypted container; if he believed only he had the keys, he may have thought it was safe. If he believes he was being framed for child pornography, I imagine he would shout it from the rooftops. Or at least try to shout it to the extent he could, to the point that there would probably be at least a little coverage of the framing allegation. Second, they found plenty of other things, too, (for example, the keys to various VeraCrypt volumes on his phone), so he clearly wasn't a total pro at wiping data.

For the record, the original allegation [0]:

>investigators discovered a single classified document as well as over 10,000 images and videos depicting child pornography including "sadistic and masochistic images and videos of children as young as a few years old who had been brutally sexually assaulted." The government found that Schulte had "neatly organized" this material "according to his preferences, and stored it for a period of years."

More details here, including IRC chat logs: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.480183...

I'd recommend reading the whole criminal complaint. They'd really have to provide full, unedited chat logs in order to get a more holistic view, but from what they provided, it does seem somewhat ambiguous. Based on the chat logs and Google search results they found, it seems clear he did intentionally seek out and download child pornography. However, from the conversation snippets they posted, I could see the argument that it was a morbid curiosity for him rather than out of pedophilic urges. None of those conversations look anything like conversations between pedophiles or child porn distributors. One would think they would stick the worst stuff in the complaint, and if those are the worst logs they found, then it doesn't seem like a total open-and-shut case. You could definitely interpret those logs as Schulte slyly probing for where to find things, with some plausible deniability, so he could fulfill his sexual desires, but you could also possibly interpret it as young guys (he was around 21 at the time, talking to other young guys) being edgy and stupid.

That interpretation is tough given the fact that he had 54 GB of it, in a folder named "CP Files", across over 10,000 images and videos, in neatly organized sub-folders. They also found a few Google searches up until 2012. [1] Though, if it were perhaps one large archive he had downloaded and extracted one time, rather than meticulously curating individual files over years, I could possibly see the argument that it was from when he was just researching about that horrible fascination. If so, and if it was done around 2009 - 2012, it's possible he could've even forgotten he had it when he got raided in 2017. And the Google searches look pretty bad, but, again, if those are the worst they found, I wouldn't say it's open-and-shut.

Of course, I do think people should face consequences for having 10,000+ items of child pornography, regardless of their motives, but there could be mitigating factors here. Or there might not be. One would have to look at a lot more evidence, and we'll presumably get a look at that once he's separately tried for the child pornography charges.

In an interesting twist, he actually did (briefly?) publicly claim he was framed, and there's an allegation that he planned to use two false identities and a document claiming inside knowledge that the child pornography was planted, written by him under one of these false identities (masquerading as a supposed internal FBI source), to be released by WikiLeaks. Basically, the government is accusing him of trying to frame a framing. This appears to not be denied by him (I think?), but could possibly be thrown out due to potential attorney client-privilege issues with the documents that contained the evidence. (Not sure if it was brought up in this trial.) In my opinion, the evidence is pretty damning that he did plan to spread this disinformation to cast doubt about the leak and the child pornography; though all of this doesn't necessarily lend more support to any of the original allegations. [2][3][4]

I'm not a fan of this trend of HN comments skimming some headline or article snippet and then giving a hot take without actually looking into any of the facts or claims. I feel like it's been happening a lot more in the past few years; even reddit often isn't as bad. It takes about a minute to see the government's case against him and to consider a few possible defenses he may have, rather than knee-jerk pattern matching "alleged CIA leaker accused of CP possession" to "FBI/CIA possibly/likely planted evidence", with nothing to support that. If you were to sow some seeds of doubt in the veracity of the logs or any other government claims, it'd be different. Just because it's a plausible story from a motive perspective doesn't mean the onus still isn't on you to support the suspicion.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Schulte#Sex_crimes_alle...

[1] (Paraphrased slightly) (i) April 9, 2011, Google Search for "child pornography" on at least three occasions; (ii) October 15, 2011, Google Searches for "movie where father videos daughter and friend sex" and "movie where father videos child porn"; and (iii) May 15, 2012, Google Search for "female teenage body by year."

[2] https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/06/19/accused-vault-7-leaker...

[3] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.480183...

[4] Excerpts:

>“So who’s responsible for Vault 7? The CIA’s own version of the FBI’s Peter Strzok and Lisa Page”

>in the Fake FBI Document in the Schulte Cell Documents, a purported FBI “whistleblower” claimed that the FBI had placed child pornography on Schulte’s computer after its initial searches of the device were unsuccessful in recovering evidence.

Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by staticautomatic on Monday March 09, 2020 @05:33PM (#22530063)
I don't have any comment on the truth of the factual assertions. And I don't know how common it is for feds to actually plant evidence these days or in these kinds of cases, but in my experience it is relatively common for federal prosecutors to over-charge suspects, make shit up outright, lob salacious accusations that they know perfectly well aren't supported by evidence, conceal evidence from grand juries which they know would jeopardize their chances of securing an indictment, knowingly conceal exculpatory evidence, and deliberately misstate the nature of evidence, among other things. Source: Myself; I consult on litigation for a living, including criminal cases ranging from misdemeanor drug possession to white collar to murder one.
Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by UweSchmidt on Monday March 09, 2020 @08:31PM (#22531490)
What mechanisms lead to this? Do prosecutors have to win cases for promotions and be tough on crime for later political careers?
Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by staticautomatic on Monday March 09, 2020 @10:41PM (#22532284)
I suspect there are a number of reasons. They need to be understood in the context of the criminal justice system's goals. It is not principally concerned with "doing justice" in any holistic political-philosophical sense. That is evident from its favoring of certain aspects of justice like punishment, retribution, and deterrence over things like procedural fairness and proportionality. That is to say its primary aim is punishing wrongdoers and making examples of them. Accordingly, any means or outcome which satisfies these goals is assumed to be "just". Any alternative-- even one in the cannon of "justice"-- is understood to be a failing or at best reckless.

One reason this happens is that police and prosecutors alike put a lot of work into investigating crimes, and they do not like working in vain. They are especially bothered by the prospect of not apprehending anyone, and much more so by the prospect of being unable to convict someone they believe is guilty. It would be fair to say that they have at least some bias toward convicting someone-- anyone. It's also the case that they are sometimes wrong but very much don't want to believe they are. People easily find ways of justifying things they want to believe.

Another reason is that trial lawyers tend to develop a preoccupation with winning. Consider that, for a prosecutor, the only way to win is to get a conviction. This can lead them down the path to all sorts of hell and is probably the biggest contributor to grand juries being shams and evidence being withheld.

It is true that there are career benefits to winning a lot of cases, but for your average ADA that's typically just the privilege of being given more serious cases to prosecute. Plenty of ADA's lose a lot of trials with few ill consequences. Where this is more of a problem is with elected prosecutors, the actual District Attorneys. They are the ones who benefit most from high profile investigations, indictments, and convictions. It's very much in their political self-interest to get convictions.

Lastly, the courts (judges) generally let prosecutors get away with all sorts of shenanigans for a variety of reasons. It may be that they themselves are "tough on crime", or prefer to give prosecutors the benefit of the doubt, or simply that they're lazy. Any trial lawyer will tell you it happens with shocking regularity that judges allow evidence into trial that they really shouldn't under the guise of the questionable rationale that they should just "let the jury decide." Let us not forget that one of Alexander Hamilton's main arguments in favor of the jury system was as a safeguard against corrupt judges.

In short, little stops them from doing these things other than their own consciences, a handful of weakly observed procedural safeguards, and some extremely vigilant defense attorneys who fight back hard.

Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by true_religion on Monday March 09, 2020 @08:56PM (#22531660)
If you think you are being framed, but have no evidence then your best court defense is to talk about what you can prove. Judges do not look kindly on desperate gambits.

Once you are free, it’s much easier to gather evidence.

Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by meowface on Monday March 09, 2020 @09:28PM (#22531869)
He did attempt to orchestrate an extremely elaborate and desperate gambit to try to claim he was framed. (See citations 2 - 4.) And indeed, it appears it was not looked upon kindly.

I don't agree in general, though. If someone framed you but you couldn't prove the actual framing, you would still insist that you were framed and explain how you couldn't have done it. If that happened to me, I would be livid and professing my innocence and making it very clear to whoever I could that someone somehow planted the evidence. Maybe his lawyers advised him not to talk, but they didn't really present much of an argument for framing/planting at trial, either, it seems.

>Once you are free, it’s much easier to gather evidence.

What if you're convicted and sentenced to many decades, or life, as he likely will be either for a retrial on the leak stuff, or for his child pornography trial?

Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by frandroid on Monday March 09, 2020 @06:01PM (#22530339)
> I could see the argument that it was a morbid curiosity for him rather than out of pedophilic urges

Possession is illegal either way...

Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by meowface on Monday March 09, 2020 @06:22PM (#22530539)
I added a paragraph about that. Of course it's illegal, and I personally think from an ethical standpoint that he should face criminal consequences either way, but there may be mitigating factors, and it may not be like how the government is portraying him in the complaint (essentially like a prolific predator and distributor). This could play a big role in sentencing, if it's true that there are those mitigating factors.
Re:Trial of programmer accused in CIA leak ends in hung jury by nl on Monday March 09, 2020 @06:06PM (#22530386)
I agree with this entirely.

I think conspiracy theories are so dangerous because the threads can be interpreted however one wants, and facts don't matter.

You wrote a thoughtful, sensible rebuttal, but it has little impact in the face of "oh of course the CIA did it". It's pretty disappointing really.