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Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by mc32 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:05PM (#22497562)
No. Nationalizing it will politicize pharmaceuticals. (and parties change control every few years of so). Private industry may chase the longevity dollars (expensive drugs for rich people who want to make their later years easier), but they also do lots of research in lots of other mundane areas.

The problem is more in the healthcare _system_ whose incentives are not aligned with the patients foremost, but rather is more geared towards extracting as much as possible from insurance companies who in turn are disincentivized to give their patients decent care, in many ways.

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by s1artibartfast on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:21PM (#22497720)
Agreed. Outcome based pricing is a pretty easy step in the right direction and helps to aligns the stakeholders.The drug company only gets paid if the patients get the desired outcome.

The current system is completely bonkers. Insurance company profits are capped at a fixed percent, so they want to drive costs as high as possible. Pharma Benefit managers get paid by insurance based on list prices, so they also want to maximize price. Lastly, the manufacturer gets paid by PBMs based on list price minus kickbacks, and obviously wants to turn a profit

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by bitwize on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:42PM (#22497959)
> Nationalizing it will politicize pharmaceuticals. (and parties change control every few years of so).

That's easy to fix. Pass a law forbidding any non-progressive political parties from forming or having a say in government. What could possibly go wrong?

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by mc32 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:15PM (#22498362)
> “Pass a law forbidding any non-progressive political parties from forming...”

What? That runs against the bill of rights right out of the gate.

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by taborj on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:15PM (#22498351)
> What could possibly go wrong?

Let's look to some one-party countries to find out!

Oh, look, everything.

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by HarryHirsch on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:13PM (#22498334)
Considering how many politicians try to score votes through speaking against the HPV vaccine and how many lives are lost though entirely preventable cervical cancer, this kind of remark is completely unneeded. Statistics are here: https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/cervical/statistics/index.htm
Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by nyxtom on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:58PM (#22498798)
You would think that's a big part of the problem, but some of these issues like:

- Pharmaceutical companies sponsoring/paying doctors to push their products

- Paying doctors to put their names on papers they haven't even written or reward for research they never actually did

- Companies that engage in patent thicketing and product hopping (drug companies abusing the patent system to hold onto market share and prevent any generic competition)

- Pharmaceutical companies engaging in price gouging tactics

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by mc32 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @05:46PM (#22499174)
That happens in countries with universal or semi socialized medicine too.

Obviously these are two different things. What I’m saying is whether or not healthcare is private or nationalized, the pharma industry in those countries are not nationalized (like say the way they were in the eastern bloc).

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by dariusj18 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @05:45PM (#22499170)
And preventing these things are the role of government, not practicing them itself.
Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by snarf21 on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:23PM (#22497746)
Agreed. I also think that there are certain endeavors (medicine, space travel, etc.) where we need global cost sharing. Why are drugs cheaper in Canada? A lot of the drugs that go around the world are paid for by the US middle class. This cost sharing also removes the need for patent protections as everyone is opted in and buys from the global source. Obviously there are more details to solve but I'd like to see this approach tried.
Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by guerrilla on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:22PM (#22497726)
As if medicine hasn't always been political and can somehow avoid that in private hands.
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Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by _Wintermute on Thursday March 05, 2020 @04:33PM (#22498574)
> Today, most pharmaceuticals are developed by the government. Private corporations take existing research and medicines, tweak them enough to be considered 'different', give them new names and then market them heavily to uncritical citizens, acting as parasites. [1][2]

There is so much wrong with that sentence, but it's written with such conviction and confidence that I think this reply is probably a waste of my time.

There is a huge amount of work, money and risk between government funded research highlighting a potential mechanism of action and actually getting a drug to patients. You can easily spend millions and years of work chasing down a promising project only to find out your drug doesn't work. Biology is really complex, most lay-people probably overestimate how much we actually understand. You can work decades in a pharmaceutical company and never see a project you worked on reach clinical trials, and even if you are lucky enough to get that far, it it has about a 10% chance of actually being approved.

To say all that pharmaceutical companies are doing is stealing and monetizing government research is demonstrating a real lack of understanding of how drug discovery works.

Source: worked in drug discovery for many years in both government funded academic labs and pharma.

[dead]
Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by GreenJelloShot on Thursday March 05, 2020 @06:04PM (#22499317)
If it is simple as copying from the government, then why aren't you doing it too? Why not take the existing medicine and resell it to the public for half of what everyone else is charging?

You would simultaneously be making a fortune, while at the same time being called a hero.

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by thulecitizen on Thursday March 05, 2020 @07:42PM (#22500052)
I’m arguing that they are creating an IP/patent war-chest and slowly but surely creating a fatal monopoly.

I’m saying corporations are abusing our common inheritance by plundering the commons and not contributing back to it.

“Information is power. But like all power, there are those who want to keep it for themselves. The world's entire scientific and cultural heritage, published over centuries in books and journals, is increasingly being digitized and locked up by a handful of private corporations. Want to read the papers featuring the most famous results of the sciences? You'll need to send enormous amounts to publishers like Reed Elsevier.

There are those struggling to change this. The Open Access Movement has fought valiantly to ensure that scientists do not sign their copyrights away but instead ensure their work is published on the Internet, under terms that allow anyone to access it. But even under the best scenarios, their work will only apply to things published in the future. Everything up until now will have been lost.

That is too high a price to pay. Forcing academics to pay money to read the work of their colleagues? Scanning entire libraries but only allowing the folks at Google to read them? Providing scientific articles to those at elite universities in the First World, but not to children in the Global South? It's outrageous and unacceptable. “

— Aaron Swartz

Big Pharma is standing on the shoulders of giants, but are biting the hand that fed them.

We have much shared wealth, but without open or public access, and cooperative business models that steward and keep a healthy commons alive, the trend towards extortion of the lower and middle classes of America by Corporations (through rent from IP) will keep increasing, as well as US brutality towards the Global South, in trying to upkeep the US-led Global North Imperial IP regime [1].

In that future, the class divide will keep growing and many more people will continue to suffer.

In the end, without sharing and socializing progress, we run the risk of the Precariat taking down the systems completely, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I believe our ideal future lies in something described as Protocol Cooperativism, using distributed technologies like Ceptr and Holochain.

I would also like to see an unenclosed p2p intellectual property system that honors authorship, yet allows access for all [1].

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/76166b6a-03ca-11e2-9322-00144feab... or https://www.immagic.com/eLibrary/ARCHIVES/GENERAL/GENPRESS/F...

[2] https://vimeo.com/50481436

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by malandrew on Thursday March 05, 2020 @06:17PM (#22499436)
Please read the comment guidelines as your comments in this thread violate the first eight guidelines for comments on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Is it time to nationalise the pharmaceutical industry? by HarryHirsch on Thursday March 05, 2020 @03:25PM (#22497770)
Nationalizing it will politicize pharmaceuticals

You need to keep the politicians out of the pipeline and put physicians and pharmacologists in charge. It's more difficult in a country where the public service has been gutted for 40 years, but it has to be done.

Right now there is insufficient research in antibiotics and tropical diseases and far too much in cancer. The market isn't going to fix that misallocation of funds.