Then why would the word minimum be used?

> as any professional would be

Would call center staff, receptionists etc not be professionals (I.e. is there a use of the term I'm not aware of?). Is it people doing work requiring degrees?

> Would call center staff, receptionists etc not be professionals

Are you just asking what a 'professional' is? As in you're not a native speaker?

The etymology is from 'someone who has professed vows' and traditionally means someone who's part of some kind of learned society. In the past it was classes like doctors, lawyers, religious ministers. Over the industrial revolution it began to include engineers. Engineers used to be part of learned societies (I am, as a software engineer), but now it's more relaxed in many places, with software engineering being at the extreme end of relaxed.

So not call centre staff, because that's not part of any learned society and are not part of a career that would traditionally have been so but has become more relaxed.

Wikipedia explains well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional.

Are you confusing the term with just 'anyone who works for a living'? That's not what 'professional' means.

> Are you just asking what a 'professional' is? As in you're not a native speaker?

Indeed.

> Are you confusing the term with just 'anyone who works for a living'? That's not what 'professional' means.

That's how it's commonly used in sports, perhaps that's where I got it from. I'd call any athlete who performs their sport for a living "professional", not because they are e.g. part of a specific league, but exactly because they can do it for a living.

But regardless: which people in a typical company would be the professionals? People with protected titles (Lawyers, etc)? How do e.g. Engineers fit in?

I think the amateur/professional use is a bit different, because nobody is an amateur call centre worker.

> But regardless: which people in a typical company would be the professionals? People with protected titles (Lawyers, etc)? How do e.g. Engineers fit in?

People who's careers would traditionally have been part of learned societies that you had to profess vows to get into, and then careers that have grown up around that.

Lawyers, engineers, HR, marketing (there are learned societies for HR and marketing), etc.

> I think the amateur/professional use is a bit different, because nobody is an amateur call centre worker.

There are political volunteer call center workers aiding the campaign of their favored candidate.

I really don’t think that’s what the amateur/professional distinction means. You’re taking it a bit literally.

Additionally, the other dichotomy (for this use of 'professional') is vocational/professional.

A barber is probably even qualified (which the call centre worker may not be), but it's a vocational qualification; cutting hair is their vocation; it isn't a profession.

>The etymology is from 'someone who has professed vows'

To a certain extent, I think you are guilty of relaxing the definition just as you accuse the OP of doing.

Strictly defined “professional engineers” are licensed and do take those vows of ethical behavior. However, the vast majority of people claiming an engineer title do not meet this criteria. While somewhat pedantic, it does carry legal meaning. Some states have even brought lawsuits in this regard, although I think they were ruled against.

I think I covered that when I said it was relaxing over time and professions which used to require membership I’d learned societies don’t and that software engineering was at the extreme of this.

You did, my point was more along the lines of it’s subjective use and how it blurs the lines, so I suppose we’re saying the same thing. To a certain extent, the perverting of the terminology seems to be used to garner prestige or status rather than any of the original purpose. If subjectivity extends far enough, it’s hard for me to say the OP was using the term “professional” incorrectly. In that case, it’s hard to make the case that your subjective definition is right and theirs is wrong or vice versa

"Professional" is sometimes used as a kind of class or sub-class division among labor in (at least) the US. Lawyers and doctors are definitely in it. Various other groups may be in depending on who's making the distinction, and others like to imagine they are in. They tend to be the sorts who have vacation homes somewhere nice, and have some specific skill usually requiring significant education, rather than broadly "business stuff" as a well-off manager with similar wealth might. So, well paid highly skilled labor.

Imagine the stereotypical Asian immigrant middle-class parents and if there's a profession they'd be absolutely thrilled for their kid to go into, that's likely professional class. The happier these imaginary people are, the more solidly professional class it is.

I mean technically it can be true that everyone is on 70k, and some people are on more.

How's that? It can be true that everyone is on at least 70k, and some people are on more. It can't be true that everyone is on 70k, and some people are on more. If you're on 80k then you aren't on 70k are you?

If you're 5 and asking "how many months have 28 days?" and insisting the answer is "all of them", you are technically correct. In that extremely limited sense, this headline could also be correct.

today i learned that a lot of people on HN don't have kids. you learn to be very direct in communication to avoid misunderstanding like this (which is very common!)

Mate, most of us don’t even have girlfriends.