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Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by anonsivalley652 on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:16AM (#22441097)
Note: I heard this story around 2015-2016. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9371854

I'm not sure which is more applicable:

1. Hurray, decency.

2. Shouldn't getting excited about what would've been middle-class income 70 years ago be a sign how far workers' pay has fallen?

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:23AM (#22441121)
Where do you get that 'middle-class income' from?

The standard of living that 70k USD buys today is vastly better than what the median income bought in 1950.

(Of course, Seattle is rather expensive. The 70k USD would go much further in a city that didn't restrict residential construction so much.)

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by TomMckenny on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:42AM (#22441189)
You can not even buy a house built on the 1950s on 70k a year. And while most quality claims (which usually lack actual numbers) certainly look subjective, the quality of a dirt lot or vial of insulin has obviously not changed while their adjusted inflation price has sky rocketed.

At any rate, the claim that "stuff" is more expensive because it is better implies that decades of technical improvements have resulted in no efficiency gains. At best, it implies the value per man hour has essentially remained flat. And since the option of buying lower priced versions of items has dispersed, we can never know if the higher quality item is fairly priced.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:57AM (#22441241)
Dirt has become enormously more expensive. The more dignified term to use here is 'land prices have increased.' One could argue that the quality of the dirt has improved a lot; or at least the quality of its location. The US in 2020 is a much richer place than the US in 1950; so we'd expect land to cost more.

(But in addition, there are those restrictions on housing supply that I already mentioned.)

You are right about insulin probably not having gotten much better. There's a few other goods like that as well. Some of those problems are self-inflicted. Eg education is much more costly these days, too.

Who claimed that stuff is more expensive because it's better?

Taking hedonic adjustments into account when producing inflation numbers is the proper thing to do. Productivity improvements would then show up by decreases in the price level measured like that. We can see that for eg computers. A good enough desktop computer today costs less in nominal dollars than in the early 90s, despite being enormously more powerful.

Yes, you are right that we can not buy many of the crappier things any more. That's partially down to regulation, but also down to there just not being enough demand for lots of crappy stuff to keep production at scale running.

So that makes calculating the price level harder. The usual work-around is to only look at adjustments from one year to the next, and chain them.

Another workaround is to go with the Big Mac index. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index) That index is a bit of a joke, since it just measure the price of a Big Mac. But it's surprisingly useful for what it is.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by vonseel on Friday February 28, 2020 @03:32AM (#22441376)
Not sure where you’re going with the can’t buy crappy stuff anymore argument, from another perspective, most things built today are crappy Chinese junk compared to things built 70 years ago, if they existed 70 years ago. Mending and the art of repair has been forgotten by most - if your TV has an issue, you’re more likely to buy a new one than fix it, even if it’s possibly repairable for less than a couple hundred bucks by someone who knows there way around electronics. Same goes for clothing, small appliances like blenders or table fans, and a lot of other things. OTOH, something like a fridge today is much more efficient than it was 50 years ago, but it may not be as easily repairable or simple - look at cars nowadays versus the cars before 90/00s - no computers easy to fix. Now you buy a Tesla that is put together like an iPhone.
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by sokoloff on Friday February 28, 2020 @05:16AM (#22441792)
When you can buy a 50" LED 4K TV for under $300, why would you attempt a repair of any older tech TV that is "probably repairable" for a couple hundred bucks? Take it off the wall; find a repair place; make an appointment; schlep it over there; wait for the results; pick it up; put it back on the wall vs drive to BestBuy and buy a newer, better TV and put the old one on the curb and be done with certainty tomorrow.

Any commodity TV is immediately beyond-economic-repair, IMO.

1 - https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-50-class-led-nu6900-ser... (literally the first search result I found)

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by ryandrake on Friday February 28, 2020 @11:31AM (#22443932)
It makes sense if you can repair it with a few $0.15 capacitors and an hour of your time. I repair my electronics when they fail, and it saves me a lot of money. Somehow, it's become cool just to throw perfectly serviceable stuff in a landfill rather than watch a YouTube video and learn a little soldering.
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by sokoloff on Saturday February 29, 2020 @12:40PM (#22451786)
Yes, I'm also personally very likely to tear it apart and see if I can replace any failed electrolytics, but that's only applicable to 0.5% of the population or less. I'm doing that as the least hassle way to get a working TV again (less research, less driving, no changing the TV mount, etc).

99.5+% of people are better off economically and time-wise to throw away any out-of-warranty TV undiagnosed and buy new.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @05:35AM (#22441864)
> [...] built today are crappy Chinese junk compared to things built 70 years ago, if they existed 70 years ago [...]

Ignoring the big 'if': most goods today are better than what we had in 1950. Especially if you compare the quality of goods that required the median worker to work the same amount of hours.

The 'junk' you talk about takes minutes of work to earn enough to buy. And most of the time, that's good enough. The stuff that you spend a few hours of pay on, is mostly so much better.

Another commenter already pointed out that the example of repairability don't really hold up. It's mostly because wages have increased that repairing those things doesn't make much sense any more.

Just think how much time even well-to-do middle class women used to spent on darning socks and mending clothing. Basic clothing is too cheap to measure these days.

Cars need much less maintenance these days.

It's easy to view the past with rose tinted lenses. But most things were really crappy.

See https://www.gwern.net/Improvements for more on this perspective:

> clothing has become almost “too cheap to meter”; the idea of, say, darning socks is completely alien3, clothing companies routinely burn millions of pounds of clothes because it’s cheaper than the cost of selling them, and Africa is flooded by discards.

> materials science has produced constant visible-yet-invisible improvements in textiles yielding, among other things, far better insulated (and cheaper) winter jackets: instead of choosing between winter coats which make you look like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man or freezing (and if you get wet, freezing anyway) or exotic ultra-expensive garments aimed at mountain climbers, you can now buy ordinary (and much cheaper) winter coats which are amazingly thin and work even better to keep you warm—so much so that you have to be careful to not buy too well-insulated a coat, lest you swelter at the slightest exertion and be placed between the Scylla of overheating & the Charybdis of opening your coat to the freezing air to cool.

I submitted Gwern's piece at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22441865

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by ghaff on Friday February 28, 2020 @06:48AM (#22442132)
I mostly agree.

>cars need much less maintenance these days.

And, especially if you lived somewhere with snow and salt on the roads, they mostly lasted about 50K miles before they rusted out. Growing up, it was an unusual car that made it to 100K.

That said, minor repairs of otherwise functional gear can make sense. I'm generally in agreement on electronics. But I fairly commonly repair or have repaired hiking or camping gear for example that just needs some stitching to get back in working condition.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by thebean11 on Friday February 28, 2020 @09:30AM (#22442983)
There still seems to be a market for repairing high end stuff. Shoe repair and clothing alteration stores haven't really gone anywhere
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by ghaff on Friday February 28, 2020 @11:04AM (#22443672)
I suspect it's declined pretty significantly--in fact, because people wear fewer shoes that can be repaired and wear less tailored clothing. But of course there are still tailors and cobblers (who are often a good place to get backpacks and the like repaired) are still around. Many laundry places will do minor repairs as well.

In the anecdata department, the last time I took something into REI to be repaired they told me they didn't do that any longer and to send it to Rainy Pass in Seattle.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by maxerickson on Friday February 28, 2020 @04:39AM (#22441635)
The quality of insulin went up a great deal ~1980 when human insulin produced in bacteria came to market. That's the stuff you can get at Walmart for $25 a vial. Prior to that, the source of insulin had been the bovines.

The more expensive insulins that are on the market have different effect profiles that (somewhat) simplify managing blood sugar.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by 1123581321 on Friday February 28, 2020 @04:30AM (#22441603)
Insulin quality and delivery methods have repeatedly improved.
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by mandelbrotwurst on Friday February 28, 2020 @03:12AM (#22441299)
Sure, but these jobs are in Seattle!
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @03:18AM (#22441315)
Yes. Alas, the article doesn't say whether that supposed calculation they did was for Seattle or for the US in general.

(The article implies it's for 'Americans'. But it's just not very precise.)

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by travbrack on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:21AM (#22441112)
Huh? Inflation calculator says 70k in 1950 is worth 754k today.

Edit: I did the calculation backwards. Thanks to everyone who pointed that out.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by primitivesuave on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:28AM (#22441146)
By the other interpretation of $6500 dollars in 1950 (roughly equivalent to 70k today), it would be much higher than the average family income of 1950 of $3,300 and put you in the top 10-20% of earners, which is probably not as far as 70k gets you today.
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by sarbaz on Friday February 28, 2020 @04:54AM (#22441688)
GP's point wasn't about inflation but about growth. So for a rough estimate you should be looking at the rate of GDP growth rather than the rate of inflation. Since GDP per capita grew 30x since 1950, you should be comparing the 70k wage to a family income of approx 100k.

If you look at inflation only, that is equivalent to saying that workers should have gained absolutely nothing from technology and efficiency gains made in the past 70 years. But obviously we know that workers are far more productive today than they were in the 50s, and the extra productivity per worker is reflected in GDP.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by luckylion on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:55AM (#22441230)
Comparing family income 1950 with a single income in 2020 though. Have two incomes of that size in a family, and you'll be at 140k, which will put you in in that range.
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by oblio on Friday February 28, 2020 @05:03AM (#22441733)
I'd agree with you, but. In 1950 the average family was very likely to live on a single income, the husband would be the earner and the wife a housewife.

I'd be curious to see the numbers for my assumption, though.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by luckylion on Friday February 28, 2020 @06:23AM (#22442036)
Yeah, from what I understand, inflation-adjusted family income has remained largely stable for the lower 80% despite significantly more families having more than one income, which sounds plausible, given that more supply should decrease the price of labor.
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:30AM (#22441153)
Of course, fewer people were middle class back then..

But yeah, the original comment we are replying to doesn't have much going for it.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by bencoder on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:40AM (#22441182)
The true inflation rate is probably a lot higher than CPI which is what most calculators use. Somewhere between 7-13% [0] (for example)

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/if-people-knew-the-actual-in...

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @03:24AM (#22441337)
Serious economists mostly suspect that the CPI overstates inflation. See eg https://www.schroders.com/en/sysglobalassets/digital/insight... or do some Google searches.

In any case, I agree that inflation (or more precisely, the price level) is a finicky statistic to agree on. So if you are making an argument, it's better if you can avoid inflation.

Eg people like to argue whether median real income has stagnated or not. And that crucially hinges on inflation. But what they actually want to talk about seems to be whether workers get 'exploited' more. So we can instead look at the labour share of GDP over time. No inflation adjustment necessary.

The article you linked to is somewhat hilarious. It suggests eg China is cooperating with the US in massaging American inflation numbers. (See point 2 in their list.)

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:26AM (#22441137)
I think you'd need to do the opposite: take 70k today, and figure out what the inflation calculator suggests about it's value in 1950 dollars. Just using your numbers, that would be about 6.5k.

Now compare with median annual incomes in 1950. Asking Google about '1950 median american income' gives 'Average family income in 1950 was $3,300.' Not quite what I wanted to know, but close enough. (We are looking at per worker income, and would probably be more interested in median than average.)

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by mzi on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:36AM (#22441169)
I found this link[0] that tells us that the median income - adjusted for inflation - seems to be rising since 1967.

https://www.davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by nbp160130 on Friday February 28, 2020 @03:00AM (#22441249)
This is measuring household income, not individual income. Real household income isn't increasing because wages are rising, it's increasing because more people in a household are working.
Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by eru on Friday February 28, 2020 @03:17AM (#22441313)
On the other hand, household sizes have decreased.

(Though not sure about workers per household.)

> [...] it's increasing because more people in a household are working.

More people are working outside the house and participating in the market economy. Women worked before, domestic chores don't show up in these statistics.

Presumably they produce a lot more working outside the house: to estimate a monetary value of what they did before compare with the prevailing wages for nannies and housekeepers.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by zelphirkalt on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:24AM (#22441128)
You have it the wrong way around. You should calculate what historical wage would be 70k today.

GP is probably also relating to what you can buy using 70k.

Re:The boss who put everyone on 70K by opan on Friday February 28, 2020 @02:25AM (#22441131)
Wouldn't you instead want to see what 70k today is equivalent to back then, then check how that pay compares to the average?