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Re:In Britain, even jails have a class system by philwelch on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @03:05PM (#22416842)
> I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

How did that work out for them?

* The abolition of the English monarchy led to the brutal military dictatorship of Cromwell, which ended only with the reestablishment of the monarchy.

* The abolition of the French monarchy led to the military dictatorship of Napoleon, which ended in a cataclysmic continent-wide war and the reestablishment of the Bourbon monarchy.

* The abolition of the German and Austrian monarchies led to Hitler.

* The abolition of the Russian monarchy led to the Soviet Union and the mass murder of tens of millions.

* The abolition of the Chinese imperial monarchy led to a half-century-long civil war between Nationalist, Communist, and warlord factions, leading ultimately to a Communist dictatorship and the mass murder of tens of millions.

Hierarchical power is a human universal, and trying to abolish it without recognizing this fact only leads to its reemergence in even more violent forms within the space of a few years, decades if you're lucky.

Re:In Britain, even jails have a class system by chacha2 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @03:58PM (#22417369)
The Rhetoric of Reaction Albert O. Hirschman [1]

Hirschman describes the reactionary narratives thus:

- According to the perversity thesis, any purposive action to improve some feature of the political, social, or economic order only serves to exacerbate the condition one wishes to remedy.

- The futility thesis holds that attempts at social transformation will be unavailing, that they will simply fail to "make a dent."

- Finally, the jeopardy thesis argues that the cost of the proposed change or reform is too high as it endangers some previous, precious accomplishment.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rhetoric_of_Reaction

Re:In Britain, even jails have a class system by philwelch on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:28PM (#22417656)
Which is not what I'm doing at all.

If we're going to talk about the abolition of monarchies, how is it that some of the freest and most prosperous countries in the world today are constitutional monarchies? Norway, Australia, Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Belgium, Japan, Luxembourg, and Spain all rank within the top 25 of countries by HDI as well as the top 25 of countries by Democracy Index. All of those countries are monarchies.

And you still haven't addressed the historical fact that the styles of radicalism that led to the abolition of monarchies in England, France, and Russia utterly failed to make things better and, in fact, largely made things worse. That doesn't mean it's futile or counterproductive to improve society, but merely removing the existing hierarchy and attempting to install something bespoke in its place has historically been a failing proposition, while reforming and improving an existing system has historically been much more successful.

Re:In Britain, even jails have a class system by wpietri on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:23PM (#22418145)
When I said "mostly gotten rid of monarchies", I include constitutional monarchies in that. The monarchs in at least most of those countries have approximately zero power compared with their historical antecedents.

If anything, they're a fine example of the kind of dealing realistically with our heritage I'm talking about. Actual monarchies have a track record I would generously call mixed, and perhaps more properly call horrific. But being half-evolved primates, humans seem to like having an officially recognized big monkey to rally around. So we keep the Queen of England around as something akin to a hood ornament on the car of that nation. It works, even if it's not particularly rational. But then, neither are we.

Re:In Britain, even jails have a class system by wpietri on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:15PM (#22418066)
Thank goodness I'm not talking about abolishing hierarchies, then.
Re:In Britain, even jails have a class system by claudiawerner on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:53AM (#22423400)
>* The abolition of the English monarchy led to the brutal military dictatorship of Cromwell, which ended only with the reestablishment of the monarchy.

And now that monarchy has a lot less power than it did.

>* The abolition of the French monarchy led to the military dictatorship of Napoleon, which ended in a cataclysmic continent-wide war and the reestablishment of the Bourbon monarchy.

And now France is a roughly-democratic republic.

>* The abolition of the German and Austrian monarchies led to Hitler.

Same for Germany.

>* The abolition of the Russian monarchy led to the Soviet Union and the mass murder of tens of millions.

Not so much the same for Russia, but I'd take the Russian Federation or some parts of the USSR over the Tsarist dictatorship.

It's worth a strong mention that many countries which freed themselves of imperial control by the monarchy or republic of another country didn't end up in a disastrous state. The United States, Ireland and India are good examples.

>Hierarchical power is a human universal

Some kind may be, though it shouldn't be confused with monarchy. Hierarchy is not equal to a monarchy, and modern republics show that power can be distributed at least a little better, with success.

>its reemergence in even more violent forms within the space of a few years, decades if you're lucky.

And then the emergence of freedom, apparently - when most monarchy is abolished or minimized to the point of being powerless, we benefit. Arguably, the abolition of monarchy is not sufficient to do away with the unjust power of the state, but it is sufficient to do away with a certain unjustified power of man over another man.