It is an option (full pay, no black marks at work) for a lot of people. That was the setup for professionals in all large companies that I worked for and people would still come to work really sick and spread the good stuff around. Grrrr!

One of my colleagues literally apologized when he had to call out (with pneumonia) after coming in progressively more sick for a week. We have fully paid and (IMO) stigma-free sick leave, but nobody ever apologizes similarly for coming in sick and increasing the viral load of the office.

> Being sick means being unpaid, and many people cannot afford to go unpaid.

In Germany being sick means full payment by the employer for 6 weeks, after that you'll receive around 90% of your last net income by your healh insurance company for 72 weeks, after that slightly lower unemployment payments for another 12 month. So around 2.5 years of being sick are required until you're actually unpaid.

That's only for salaried employees. As a freelancer, you're generally out of luck AFAIK. (Unless you are a member of the Künstlersozialkasse or similar.)

What is full payment if you are paid hourly?

You get paid as if you had worked the full amount of hours in your employment contract.

Zero-hour contracts are illegal in Germany.

So yeah you lose out on pay if you were planning on working overtime.

Netherlands though, not the US. If they're anything like most of Europe then a doctors note is all you need to still be paid while sick more than 1-2 days.

I think it's even possible to get a sick leave from a business you own in some European countries.

But how about if you run the business on your own, and you're concerned that if you take two weeks off the business will lose many customers who won't come back?

(I was shocked when I saw the they put the name of the illness on the note. That's so far from my employers business that it should be illegal to even ask. Employees and consumers rights in Germany seem to be seriously limited.)

"(I was shocked when I saw the they put the name of the illness on the note. That's so far from my employers business that it should be illegal to even ask. Employees and consumers rights in Germany seem to be seriously limited.)"

You get multiple papers in Germany. The one without (!) diagnosis is for your employer.

The note for your employer does not contain any information about the reason for the sick leave in Germany, the one for your health insurance does.

You can buy insurance from it. It's generally there to cover you from being unable to work for a period of more than a week. So serious stuff.

As an employee the employer will have insurance but basically have to eat the cost of short sickness.

I'm a freelancer but I've chosen not to buy the insurance. It's very expensive and can survive on her income. I put the money I would have spent into a buffer.

I was surprised to find this downvoted, as it's a harsh fact of life for many people, but not the majority of people. I should have said "For some people, being sick means...". The gist of the argument still applies: It is incorrect to assume everyone can afford to take a month off work when they are sick.

I'm in a European juristiction - the UK. We have reasonable labour protections here. But they don't protect everyone.

If you are self-employed, then taking time off means going unpaid. It's that simple. Zero income. I have been in that position. Took a month off due to flu once (not the current flu). Lost 1 month income.

There is a government system called "Statutory Sick Pay" (SSP), but it is not paid to the self-employed, and if it did it would only start after a few weeks.

If you are a "casual" worker, then taking time off also means going unpaid because you don't have a contract of employment or regular hours to refer to. Sucks to be you, but it's harsh reality for many.

For salaried workers, the employer pays salary for a while. But it's time limited, depending on the employer. Some are more generous than others. The less generous will switch over to Statuory Sick Pay, which is not much money. It is rarely enough to cover rent or mortgage, for example, let alone food and bills.

A lot of people are self-employed, casual workers, or have household bills exceeding SSP. Taking a few weeks off due to sickness has a serious financial impact for those people, unfortunately, and it is wrong to assume everyone can afford to do so.

Coming from the UK, it shocked me to learn that you basically get full pay for two years of sickness in The Netherlands. The protection is so much better than the UK's system.

It can be abused though: I know of several cases where people are ill for two years, miracuously get better, work a month, then get ill for another two years.

Overall it's preferable to the UK situation.

Like you though I'm a freelancer; you earn more for less net work time so it's good.

> Like you though I'm a freelancer; you earn more for less net work time so it's good.

I do too, but it is important to recognise that many people earn a lot less when freelancing than a typical salary. There are a lot of very poorly paid "self-employed" in the UK.

I've known freelancers in the UK paid less than £3 an hour, legally because "self-employed". Think things like Uber drivers, data entry on a "per document" basis or article writing "per word".

It is tough for them.

For perspective, that is less than half the legal minimum wage, and they have no sick pay, maternity, pension or other worker protections.

I am genuinely surprised people on HN think zero pay on sick days is unusual. So I'll quote from a BBC article:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51738837

    But TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady said two million workers do not earn enough to qualify.

    Prospect union added that freelancers and self-employed people would continue to face "the dilemma of no pay or going to work when it may be putting their colleagues at risk".

    Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn asked Mr Johnson if the sick pay announcement would help those currently not eligible for statutory sick pay - such as those on zero hours contracts, or self-employed people.

He said Netherlands, not USA

That’s just a sad consequence of the paltry state of labor regulation in the US.

Not working while ill is a fundamental human right, and as such is implemented in all European jurisdictions. There are very, very few cases when you can't exercise this right.

Not wanting to is another issue though, but it's often irrational.

> Not working while ill is a fundamental human right, and as such is implemented in all European jurisdictions.

It's also implemented in all U.S. jurisdictions, for everyone except for prisoners: per the 13th Amendment, no-one not convicted of a crime can be forced to perform any work.

You left out the part where they don’t have to pay you and can fire you. Not the same as in Europe.