News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by cmroanirgo on Friday February 21, 2020 @12:21AM (#22381098)
I must remember this article the next time some Vim fanboi tries to mansplain to me why vim is better. (Note most seasoned vim users are not in this category... But will happily press an emacs user, which I'm not either). I've heard it all before and even done the side by side comparison tests... >15yrs ago.

Ultimately, the results of Larry Tesler tests coincides with my own.

Thankyou Mr Tesler for No Modes editors!

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by saagarjha on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:46AM (#22381375)
> (Note most seasoned vim users are not in this category... But will happily press an emacs user, which I'm not either).

I get hate from both sides by using nano :/

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by taneq on Friday February 21, 2020 @07:22AM (#22382569)
nano, for when you don't care and just want to edit the damn text file. :D
Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by saagarjha on Friday February 21, 2020 @07:41AM (#22382641)
Oh, no, I care very much: I go through great lengths to customize nano to my liking, to the point that I now inject code into it to construct my nanorc on-the-fly in memory for whichever version of nano it's running on: https://github.com/saagarjha/dotfiles/blob/master/fixnano.c (did you know that newer versions of nano can format your code and check if it compiles, displaying errors inline?). If I need to edit files and don't have it available I rely on vi being standardized by POSIX: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/v...
Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by taneq on Friday February 21, 2020 @08:32AM (#22382913)
Wow, nano has come a long way from when it was yet another pico (or at least that's how we used it in uni, clearly there's more to it).

Also vi being POSIX is awesome, I didn't know that! :)

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by mc3 on Friday February 21, 2020 @12:43AM (#22381170)
I think the Vim way is to spend very little time in insert mode, so most of the time you don't have to think because you will be in the other mode. That said give me VSCode anytime!
Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by polyphonicist on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:14AM (#22381459)
VSCode has a plug-in for Vim keybindings. Does not emulate Vim entirely but good enough to feel at home. Gives you best of both worlds: IDE-like features of VSCode and ergonomic manipulation of code of Vim.
Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by im3w1l on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:04AM (#22381427)
Seemed for a long time everyone were burnt out on editor wars. But I kinda wish they would start again.

Maybe competitions would be a good way of finding which is best. But what would the rules be?

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by cmroanirgo on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:37AM (#22381547)
I think the world is too polarised to even realistically attempt.

Tabs vs space? Auto indent? Supported languages? Colours? Terminal only? Size (file and app) constraints?

This is even before we enter discussion on modal or not.

I think it more realistic to understand that editors are like neighbourhoods. They come in all different shapes and sizes and each has their own vibe. Some will burn you, some you'll feel welcome in...

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by polyphonicist on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:18AM (#22381472)
Actual quote from the article for context:

> Modeless: Computer scientists when writing code typically worked in different modes; you might have an insert mode, a delete mode, or a replace mode. You would first select the mode, then select the point on the screen at which the action was to occur, then perform the action. Tesler, in user experiments, proved that modes were confusing for nonscientific users and championed the “modeless” interface.

For non-technical users, sure modeless editing may be better. But for computer scientists, modeful editing may be better. The article mentions modeless editing to be better for no scientific users only, not necessarily for everyone.

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by TuringTest on Friday February 21, 2020 @04:29AM (#22381961)
> But for computer scientists, modeful editing may be better. The article mentions modeless editing to be better for no scientific users only, not necessarily for everyone.

That's why they kept on investigating, and concluded that modes are bad for anyone; as long as they are human, using modes increase their rates of error. Jef Raskin went so far as to invent quasimodes, to get the benefits of modal interfaces without the burden on short-term memory. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface)#Quasimod...)

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by lonelappde on Friday February 21, 2020 @08:21AM (#22382845)
Calling people inhuman is obnoxious; please don't do that.

Quasimodes (chording) are physically difficult and distracting.

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by e12e on Saturday February 22, 2020 @07:31AM (#22390673)
Just a note, that for a person used to working in say, vim - having to take a hand off the keyboard in order to use the mouse (or touch the screen) essentially feels like changing to selection mode. Putting hand back on keyboard is like going back to insert mode.

The key difference is of course that "learning" to use the mouse, or the touch screen - feels much more natural than some arcane key combination.

So, if you already know the combinations for switching modes (both the arcane key combo, and the "process" of moving one hand from the keyboard to the mouse, and back again) - you are comparing different things - typically "efficiency".

While I'm a vim user, and unlikely to ever go back to using a mouse, due to RSS injuries - I still thing something like ACME[1] is likely more efficient than vim. On the other hand, the act of editing is plenty efficient in vim for me.

[1] Russ Cox "An introduction to the ACME editor": https://youtu.be/dP1xVpMPn8M

http://acme.cat-v.org/

Re:Of Modes and Men (2005) by cmroanirgo on Friday February 21, 2020 @02:23AM (#22381496)
Lol. I didn't realise I wasn't technical - but then again my background's only in electronics thru 3d game dev & modelling (90's) thru finance thru embedded. I should probably quit.

Also from the article:

> “I really didn’t believe in it,” he said. “I thought cursor keys were much better. We literally took people off the streets who had never seen a computer. In three or four minutes they were happily editing away using cursor keys. At that point I was going to show them the mouse and prove that they could select text faster than with the cursor keys. Then I was going to show that they didn’t like it.

“It backfired.

Just because he thought a way was the way, Mr Tesler was willing to correct himself of his presuppositions based on real world testing.