News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by jraby3 on Monday February 17, 2020 @05:53PM (#22351701)
Clickcease.com is an Israeli company that helps prevent this. It’s a common tactic in high cost keyword industries like lock smiths.

Sorry to hear about your experience. That sucks.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by jaaames on Monday February 17, 2020 @08:46PM (#22352729)
https://support.google.com/adspolicy/answer/7520318?hl=en

Locksmiths are now a restricted business as grey hat marketers figured it was an industry with a high ticket price and autonomous demand, and the search term was always "locksmith <city>" - so they set up sites that would flood the results, demand payment upfront for a call out, and then have a virtual assistant forward the business on to an actual locksmith in the city - essentially scooping hundreds of dollars for doing nothing but obfuscating who the real locksmiths are and forwarding the leads on them.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by donmcronald on Monday February 17, 2020 @11:38PM (#22353492)
Even the real locksmith businesses are pretty shady. CBC Marketplace recently had a story about fake locksmiths in the GTA.

Flowers are the same as you describe. It's depressing to see how easy it is to make money if you're a total scumbag.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by kortilla on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @02:36AM (#22354195)
So I get that this is sleazy, but why is it google’s job to stop this? How is this different from any other type of middleman living on referral fees?
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by Nitramp on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @03:18AM (#22354348)
It's Google's job to make sure their customers (people using the search engine) have a good time. If they're getting scammed after clicking an ad, people will learn not to click ad links and/or migrate to a different search engine, which will hurt Google's business.

Disclaimer: I work for G, but not in search or ads. Opinions are mine.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by poizan42 on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @04:15AM (#22354586)
> customers (people using the search engine)

That's their product. Their customers are the people buying ads.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by Nasrudith on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @08:37AM (#22355909)
That is a popular soundbite meme but "product" is a mislead conflation as a rhetorical bludgeon.

The people using their search engine are really more customers who pay input for service. The company sustains itself by processing the product and selling it to another group of customers pay- which is a significant difference as they have agency.

Look at the game free to play model and why pay to win is doomed to failure. There may be "whales" - the customers who pay signficant ammounts of cash but the demand the free players as content effectively. If a pay to win content is sold and drives off the free to play the whales will follow for lack of content. Proper "product" would be game AI or employees as a "rented" or "spoiling" product equivalent. The free players are customers who provide input mediated through the game server to create a product which is sold to cash customers.

Despite the dystopian rhetoric the input customers aren't like livestock because they aren't transfereable, have the agency and can meaningfully opt out.

Bing can't just buy 10 m billion users from Google to try to improve their user base. They need to get their user base directly no matter how they reach them.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by tremon on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @04:34AM (#22354658)
That doesn't change the argument. If their products get scammed after clicking an ad, people will learn not to click ad links, and Google loses their product.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by CydeWeys on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @10:41AM (#22356800)
This doesn't refute the argument at all though. Regardless of what you want to call people surfing the web and the companies buying ads, it's a problem if ads are scammy and fewer people start clicking them.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by mitchdoogle on Wednesday February 19, 2020 @02:29PM (#22369100)
Is it really that sleazy? Any service-based company is built on charging their customers more than what it costs to actually do the service. In this case, the service is finding a locksmith and directing them to your location. If someone can find a way to get in front of customers for that, then more power to them - that's the business model for any directory.

Google itself is doing much the same thing and profiting from it. They have become the go-to source for many people looking for a locksmith, when there are other ways to find them.

Maybe there's more to this than has been described, but on the surface, it seems like a common business model.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by jussij on Monday February 17, 2020 @06:18PM (#22351859)
So if Clickcease.com can help prevent this, why on earth can't Google itself help prevent this?
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by pier25 on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:16PM (#22352266)
According to ClickCease:

> Doesn't Google prevent click fraud?

> Google does detect click fraud, but does not prevent it. Instead, Google will give back credit to your account days after the fraud took place and only after you claim it. The immediate result would be that your ad budget would be exhausted and your ad will not be online for hours or even days. In addition, Google's click fraud characteristics are identical for all advertisers. While 10 clicks from the same IP address in a period of a day is completely normal for one advertiser, another might see this as nothing but click fraud. ClickCease will keep your ad online and will configure the service to best suit your business needs.

http://docs.clickcease.com/en/articles/101633-doesn-t-google...

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by stevenicr on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @04:27PM (#22360577)
While this might be true a percentage even maybe a majority of the time, in my experience they don't just send money back to you. I had google's adwords people tell me it's not certainly click fraud, there are all kinds of possibilities where actually different people are clicking on the ad like if an article goes viral lots of people could be clicking over from there..

These were clicks I knew well, as we ran groups of ads from several businesses in the areas that all did the same thing. I knew by the pattern, there was no way 200 people from 8a -9a clicked over to this business's ad, and could also tell by the lack of calls / appointments.

The real kicker was these ads are limited to only show basically along a 5 mile path of highway, very few rooftops in that area - as to get mobile searchers on that side of town - so they were convinced hundreds of people driving down the highway had all clicked over for info and no appointments while driving.

They said no proof, no refund, have a nice day.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by teddyfrozevelt on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:11PM (#22352237)
Clickcease has an incentive to prevent this, as it's their entire business model. Google has an incentive to let it happen, because it makes them more money by forcing people to keep outbidding each other. As long as Google ads are so ubiquitous that it isn't very feasible to just stop using them, then Google has no reason to stop this abuse.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by halflings on Monday February 17, 2020 @08:01PM (#22352504)
Google has a very strong incentive to stop fraud and has entire departments dedicated to fighting ad fraud.

Rampant fraud = lack of trust in your product/service, which can destroy your whole business. The internet fraud you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg, and there's much more of it that is prevented by various companies (either Google, Cloudflare, etc.)

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by mceachen on Monday February 17, 2020 @09:02PM (#22352797)
I think you're overselling how much Google cares (or needs to care) about trust.

They dominate search traffic (in the markets/countries they exist for). Businesses don't use AdWords because they "trust" Google. They suffer through using AdWords because it's the only game in town.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by halflings on Monday February 17, 2020 @10:42PM (#22353271)
This article is from 2015: https://adage.com/article/digital/inside-google-s-secret-war...

"If advertisers believed the company's operation were fraud-filled, they could take their money elsewhere and the business would falter."

That's it, in a nutshell.

(and if they had 100 people working on this in 2015; you better believe that number is much higher now)

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by mirimir on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @01:09AM (#22353854)
> This article is from 2015 ...

Maybe Google had more competition in 2015.

Although I find even that difficult to take seriously.

Where else would they "take their money"? Facebook? I doubt that Facebook ads show up in web searches.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by owl57 on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @06:56AM (#22355282)
A lot of people probably see more Facebook ads than Google ones. And Facebook knows a lot about users, probably including some things that Google knows less reliably. The relevant problem is, do they seem any less scummy?
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by skrebbel on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @01:12AM (#22353873)
> elsewhere

And where would that be, exactly?

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by kabes on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @03:45AM (#22354460)
Google really doesn't care as long as they get paid. They only self-regulate the absolute minimum. I just got this ad in gmail (presented as an email except for the little 'ad' badge): https://imgur.com/xHr7E3e

It's in in Dutch, but it's the typical misleading, copyright infringing ad you would find on shady porn sites.

Why does Google allow this ad? Don't they have the competence to filter it? It's the same company creating a great spam filter on gmail and leading in a lot of AI fields. Surely they could. But they just don't care when they get paid for it.

On the other hand, when they don't get paid or it negatively affects them, they're always happy to make changes "to protect the users" (e.g. changing chrome so adblock plus stops working etc.)

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by Fnoord on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @04:31AM (#22354650)
> Why does Google allow this ad?

The most simple explanation is because they make money with it, and get away with it. A good question is why they get away with it.

As for people in The Netherlands, my mother got scammed by a fake locksmith. He asked her to pay with PIN, and he did not fix the problem (which we found out eventually). Total scumbag, yet he was first hit on Google. Here's some good advice on how to find a good locksmith (slotenmaker) in Dutch [1].

[1] https://www.consumentenbond.nl/inboedelverzekering/slotenmak...

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by Nasrudith on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @08:48AM (#22356008)
Stop looking for a neck to wring for a minute and think about the problem. Manual filtering is just plain not viable period. Spam is very different from arbitrary image formats and potential text analysis across language. Nobody really wants ads so spam filter feedback mechanisms of "everyone says to stop sending me this shit" are fundamentally incompatible.

Think about it would take to detect it algorithmically. Even if an image is copyrighted there is no mechanism to tell if the source actually has permission from it especially with the "born copyrighted" doctrine. Even if there was some vast self defeating registered copyrighted images database (containing images of everything copyrighted) it woukd be possible to distort images to be human recognizible but not machine recognized.

The "alternatives" of demanded manual ad control would mean massively disadvantaging smaller business by marginal costs. Oops.

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by kabes on Tuesday February 18, 2020 @01:15PM (#22358522)
You really think google doesn't have the capability to create a system to detect these ads? This is Google's core business and they do far more impressive stuff in the AI field. I'm not talking about a 100% bulletproof all-copyright-in-the-world solution. If it would be able to detect logo's from the top 1000 brands and some OCR would already go a very long way. Sure ads would try to outsmart it, just like spam it would be a cat-and-mouse game.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by 9HZZRfNlpR on Monday February 17, 2020 @08:37PM (#22352685)
The problem is that they don't have time or will to help the small guys.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by hydrox24 on Monday February 17, 2020 @06:23PM (#22351892)
Google almost certainly can, but probably has no incentive to do it for whatever reason.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by macNchz on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:13PM (#22352242)
> Google almost certainly can, but probably has no incentive to do it for whatever reason.

This has been my conclusion several times after digging deep into some weird data and discovering one of these...'grey areas' where it seems like if they cared about their customers they'd be doing something about it, but presumably they prefer having revenue from unsophisticated ad buyers.

Some of the things they turn on by default are straight up rackets, "Search Partners" for example. Companies like ask.com are arbitraging keyword traffic by buying ads to their own search results pages. These are "Search Partners" that show the ads you're paying Google for, but they're full of dark patterns to make you click the ads, and cost the same as a click directly from the Google results!

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by pier25 on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:17PM (#22352274)
> Some of the things they turn on by default are straight up rackets, "Search Partners" for example.

Could you elaborate?

Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by macNchz on Monday February 17, 2020 @07:22PM (#22352297)
I realized I should have elaborated and edited the post with more information.
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by 135792468 on Monday February 17, 2020 @09:05PM (#22352814)
FWIW it’s worth, have tested most of these companies and the only one who backs their promise is PPCProtect. But like any good soldier, talk to these companies and you’ll find out who is legit and who isn’t
Re:Pay up or we’ll make Google ban your ads by notyourwork on Monday February 17, 2020 @09:12PM (#22352852)
FWIW the “it’s worth” in “FWIW it’s worth” is redundant.