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Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by rossdavidh on Friday February 14, 2020 @01:35PM (#22328935)
Speaking as someone who lived in Bay Area California for a few years, and Texas for several decades now, the first thing to know if that not all California has the same attitude on this, for much the same reason that Waco and Austin have different attitudes on a lot of things. In the Bay Area, there are geographical (water and hills) limits to expansion, whereas in Texas when you build more, it usually is out into the abundant open land at the edge of the city.

Also, it is quite often the case that when you build, it is either: 1) made for high-income dwellers, thus not reducing prices, because the high-income and low-income housing markets are often effectively separate markets, like cars and semi-tractor trailors. ...or... 2) the people living nearby, do think it will drive down prices, including the price of their own house, which is their only effective form of savings. If their $400,000 house becomes a $300,000 house, yeah their property taxes may go down, but they lost $100,000 in savings they intended to sell and live on elsewhere after they retire.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by Robotbeat on Friday February 14, 2020 @01:53PM (#22329146)
> 1) made for high-income dwellers, thus not reducing prices, because the high-income and low-income housing markets are often effectively separate markets, like cars and semi-tractor trailors.

This is really a misnomer (and it is the linchpin of NIMBY arguments, especially in the Bay Area). If high income housing is not built, then high income people will inhabit and buy up the middle income housing, who in turn will inhabit and buy up low income housing, if they can find any at all.

You can see this clearly in the Bay Area. You have tiny houses going for like a couple million dollars.

In such an environment it's impossible to build stuff (at least, legally) that ISN'T high income housing as high income people are the only people who can afford any kind of housing in the area.

"But it's only made for high income dwellers." Build a cheap (but code-compliant) 600sqft studio in the Bay Area? Around $900/ft^2 would be the market price. It's only affordable to high income folk. A studio. This 161sqft studio in San Fran is $2300/month: https://www.businessinsider.com/smallest-apartment-for-rent-...

How is it even possible to build housing that isn't for high earners in San Francisco?

The only way to change is to build a LOT more and keep building. Or, I guess, destroy the entire local economy.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by bryanlarsen on Friday February 14, 2020 @01:47PM (#22329071)
High end housing and low end housing are not separate markets. If there is an inadequate supply rich people bid up the price of lower end housing.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by pound on Friday February 14, 2020 @01:53PM (#22329150)
When there isn't enough housing for high-income buyers in their "separate" market, what happens is that 'separate' low-income market becomes market for high-income buyers to go after.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by kelnos on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:40PM (#22330673)
> the high-income and low-income housing markets are often effectively separate markets

That's certainly not true in SF. Housing quality certainly runs the entire spectrum here, but in the last decade I've seen low-income renters forced out of ok-ish buildings, and replaced with several high-income renters who do the roommate thing in order to afford it all.

Over time, even building "market rate" (which some people erroneously call "luxury") housing in SF will start to free up the older housing stock that's being occupied by people who in any other market would be considered high-income, and return that housing to its former middle- or low-income renters.

Regardless, with the exception of subsidized housing, it's not even possible to build low- or middle-income housing in SF right now. If you build anything at any size, it will immediately price out of budget for any low-income renters, and most middle-income renters. Part of that is just because landlords and sellers charge whatever the market will bear (which is a lot), and part is because new housing development gets so much opposition that it costs developers way more than it should to actually complete a project (it can take years and countless lawsuits and legal fees to even break ground), and they need to recoup their costs and make even a modest profit somehow.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by d1zzy on Friday February 14, 2020 @04:08PM (#22330417)
> 1) made for high-income dwellers, thus not reducing prices, because the high-income and low-income housing markets are often effectively separate markets, like cars and semi-tractor trailors.

That doesn't seem right to me. Sure, the develpoers will have incentive to build the largest profit earning housing, which right now (because of a huge housing shortage for all pricing ranges) means building high-income housing. But a high-incomer earner that buys those stops competing for the fixer-upper middle income housing so that's good for other price ranges too. What's more, at some point you run out of high-income earners that will buy your expensive newly built property which requires dropping prices on existing built property _or_ starting to build the next most profitable housing, which is less profitable than before but you don't have a choice.

Now arguably, for all that to happen it takes time and the ability to build a large number of housing units, both of which may not be an option so I'm fine as a compromise to require for certain percentages of new housing to include tiers for lower pricing levels, as a requirement for the housing permit.

> 2) the people living nearby, do think it will drive down prices, including the price of their own house, which is their only effective form of savings.

There is a point where, as a society, you need to decide what's more important: giving existing owners 50%+ returns on their property or supporting new families moving in. As usual the answer is somewhere in the middle but I'm willing to bet it would go a lot against the current situation that the existing owners enjoy. After all, owning a house provides a lot of other benefits so as long as the increase in value covers for the cost (interest + taxes + maintenance) it seems fine to me.

Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by jakemal on Friday February 14, 2020 @03:54PM (#22330294)
When developers build high income housing, high income households move to those new developments and reduce demand for the places they vacated, making them more affordable for lower income households.
Re:California’s housing crisis: how a bureaucrat pushed to b... by bluGill on Friday February 14, 2020 @02:58PM (#22329795)