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Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by gyulai on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:57AM (#22280806)
...we've been having these kinds of headlines from local media outlets pretty much everywhere where FAANG have created/expanded presences. -- But it seems to me that these companies are extremely centralized and only decentralize to the extent that it is unavoidable (e.g. distributed data centers for reasons of latency) or that it captures special opportunities (e.g. Apple expanding in Munich right now, but doing only hardware and chip design work in what seems to me like a play to pick up talent from competitors like Infineon)

Also: I'd quite like to see what the distribution of carreer-levels is, when comparing Silicon Valley to non-Silicon Valley locations for these companies. I'd be willing to bet that non-Silicon Valley locations have predominantly more junior people, and that certain promotions are harder to get and will come with the necessity to move to the valley.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by qeqeqeqe on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:13AM (#22280842)
How is opening 5000 new jobs in Canada a sign that Google is "extremely centralized"? In regards to your Munich example, what exactly is the issue with that? If there's a large amount of talent in some area why wouldn't you want to try and compete for it? Anyway, I have a good feeling that office will grow soon, there's plenty of non-hardware and chip design talent in that area :) You do have to start somewhere though. I will also make an educated guess that Google isn't hiring just junior people, and even if they were, they would grow into more senior roles anyway.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by gyulai on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:26AM (#22280884)
5000 new jobs is not what the article is saying, but capacity to grow to 5000. I don't know how many they have now, and creating capacity to do something is not the same as actually doing it. Also, to put the number in perspective: 5000 would be only 4.3% of their global workforce, and my guess would be that Canada must actually be one of their biggest non-U.S. presences. (London also has a strong one for Google).

I'm also not saying that there's anything wrong with these companies expanding their presences outside the valley. (I would very much welcome it), only that we're not seeing enough of it right now to contradict the notion that these companies are still very much centralized. Maybe real estate prices and competition for tech talent will eventually force them to properly decentralize. But I could also see a scenario where those companies could put their might into play to overcome that resistance-level and allow them to continue growing while remaining centralized. It's simply too early to tell which way this thing is playing out.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by drivebycomment on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:40AM (#22280921)
> we're not seeing enough of it right now to contradict the notion that these companies are still very much centralized.

What are you basing this on, and what would be enough ?

4.3%, if indeed happens that way, would be a substantial portion. They already have significant presence in NYC, Seattle/Kirkland, London, Zurich, LA, Hyderabad, Dublin, Tokyo, Austin, etc. A few thousand here and a few thousand there add up quickly.

EDIT: Added a few more that I remembered.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by gyulai on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:49AM (#22280947)
The numbers in the article are country-level, and you're responding by saying things about cities. NYC, Seattle and LA are all in the U.S. They're centralized inside the U.S. at the city-level to Mountain View. They're centralized within the English-speaking world at the country-level to the U.S. They're centralized globally w.r.t. language communities to the English-speaking world.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by mav3rick on Sunday February 09, 2020 @03:47AM (#22281103)
You have no basis for your comment, no numbers, sources etc. Zurich, London, Tokyo all have very senior levels and many important teams. Canada is growing to those levels as well. Do your research before burying a hatchet.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by vladsbf777 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @03:04AM (#22280984)
dis is wrong about google. They is kirkland 100% not mountain view in any way whatsoever.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by memory_vandal on Sunday February 09, 2020 @05:36AM (#22281433)
here here!!!
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by unicornmama on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:20AM (#22280866)
There’s no transparency on what the roles will be. Engineering? Accounting? Datacenter operations? Fly fishing?
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by qeqeqeqe on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:25AM (#22280882)
It's obviously going to be mostly engineering, it's Google.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by OJFord on Sunday February 09, 2020 @06:29AM (#22281600)
Many 'mostly engineering' companies, including Google, have had and do have entire offices for specific non-engineering roles, such as marketing or whatever, anything which isn't seen to be needed to be in the same location, or perhaps there's a better 'hot spot' for, say marketing in NYC and engineering in SF.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ThrowawayR2 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:13PM (#22283420)
The only mention I've been able to find online suggest that only about 1/3 of Google's workforce are in R&D: https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Google-employees-ar...

"This information is most likely buried in Google’s annual report — the last one I could dig up is their 2015 fiscal year end report. According to the paper published by Google Inc and Alphabet Inc, there are 61,814 full-time employees with 23,336 in research and development."

Bear in mind R&D isn't pure developers. It also includes QA and project/program management roles.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by qeqeqeqe on Monday February 10, 2020 @03:26AM (#22287322)
That source you cite literally says that "45% of Google employees are programmers."
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ThrowawayR2 on Monday February 10, 2020 @11:29AM (#22290562)
He cites numbers from Google's previous financial reports (likely to be valid) and then adds a guess of 45% at the end (less likely to be valid). If you want to believe the guess, well, that's up to you.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ulfw on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:36AM (#22280914)
So fly fishing basically :)
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:35AM (#22280910)
Google has been decentralized for a long time. Seattle, NYC, Zurich, and London are all big offices that are at least comparable to Mountain View, not to mention a bunch of other smaller but very serious offices.

Facebook, Google, and Apple all have large or rapidly growing presences in Seattle. It does the real estate market and traffic no good, but it is what it is.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by username90 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @06:35AM (#22281614)
> Seattle, NYC, Zurich, and London are all big offices that are at least comparable to Mountain View

No they aren't, Mountain View much bigger than all of those combined.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by tathougies on Sunday February 09, 2020 @11:10AM (#22282741)
Not sure why you're being downvoted. I've been to the seattle office. Its a few buildings. The mtn view office is dozens
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday February 09, 2020 @12:12PM (#22283103)
You can’t just include Seattle (Fremont), you also have to consider Kirkland, which is much bigger than Fremont. They are building (or have built?) a new larger office in South Lake Union (5 buildings), I’m not sure if they will be consolidating Fremont but I’m pretty sure they aren’t going to consolidate Kirkland.

Altogether Google employs 4500 in the Seattle area, and that number will increase substantially when south lake union comes online. And of course, Google will just be a small presence compared to the other craziness in South Lake Union (Amazon being the biggest, but also Apple and Facebook having large presences).

Now, 4500 in Seattle, 4000 in Zurich, 3,500 in London, 7,000 in NYC...that easily approaches the 23,000 in Mountain View.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by username90 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @05:13PM (#22284685)
If you include nearby parts in Seattle then you have to include SF and other neighboring offices in MTV as well, and then you get well over 30k.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday February 09, 2020 @08:50PM (#22285758)
The Kirkland and Fremont offices are only 12.4 miles apart. When they move to South Lake Union, they'll only be 9.8 miles apart (and a much better freeway connection).

SF to Mountain View is 38.7 miles.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by tathougies on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:18PM (#22283779)
Yes i interviewed in kirkland. Much smaller than mountain view.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by allhacks on Sunday February 09, 2020 @03:31AM (#22281049)
Yeah but at Seattle is building housing. Unlike SF and most of the Bay Area...
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by tanilama on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:28AM (#22280889)
> I'd be willing to bet that non-Silicon Valley locations have predominantly more junior people, and that certain promotions are harder to get and will come with the necessity to move to the valley

This doesn't sound right TBH.

Most junior people are actually in HQ, because HQ has head counts and can offer to train them, while satellite office won't have so many HCs and usually there to snatch up experienced developers.

As to promotions to higher level, yes HQ are definitely better, but that is only because it is HQ, so critical decision is made there naturally.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by aygthrwy on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:57AM (#22280968)
Yeah, I've noticed a recent exodus of mid-level and senior people out of the Bay Area and to the major satellite offices in the US and abroad.

The traditional wisdom is that you should work from HQ to maximize your career advancement, but I think many people are weighing this against the untenable housing situation and realizing it's not worth it.

Also, San Francisco was considered a fun alternative to living in Cupertino or Menlo Park or Mountain View, but the city just keeps going further downhill. Junior employees likely have a higher tolerance than senior employees for the quality-of-life issues you deal with in San Francisco.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by skybrian on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:20AM (#22280862)
Google has large engineering offices in major cities all over the world. Seattle, New York, Dublin, London, Zurich, Tokyo...

There are advantages to being at headquarters but it's not practical to move everyone to the SF Bay Area.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by cmrdporcupine on Sunday February 09, 2020 @08:02AM (#22281885)
Here the engineering office is in Waterloo while Toronto is sales/marketing/administrative. Toronto certainly counts as a major city (3rd or 4th largest in North America depending on how you count).
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by echelon on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:15AM (#22280847)
> Also: I'd quite like to see what the distribution of carreer-levels is, when comparing Silicon Valley to non-Silicon Valley locations for these companies. I'd be willing to bet that non-Silicon Valley locations have predominantly more junior people, and that certain promotions are harder to get and will come with the necessity to move to the valley.

As a tech worker in Atlanta, I find that quite the opposite is true. People tend to career-(s)hop out in the valley and don't stay at the same company for long.

In Atlanta people tend to stay with the same company for years and grow their role and influence. As such, the SF headquarters tends to put its most important pieces in its remote offices.

I also think SF sees a lot of products spun up as promotion vehicles, whereas remote offices tend to think long term with long time horizons.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ulfw on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:35AM (#22280912)
Competitors like Infineon?

They bought Infineon (through intels purchase of Infineons mobile chip assets years ago)

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by gyulai on Sunday February 09, 2020 @02:43AM (#22280934)
Infineon is a publicly-traded company. A part of Infineon was sold to Intel, who in turn sold a part of that to Apple. Anyway: The long-standing presence of Infineon and a whole ecosystem around it (business partners, educational opportunity, etc.) means that Munich has hardware talent, and despite Munich being the most expensive and high-paying city in Germany (next to Frankfurt), salaries are still low, and real estate is still cheap, compared to the valley. That's what I mean by "special opportunity" if you look at it from Apple's point of view.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ChuckNorris89 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @03:50AM (#22281116)
>real estate is still cheap, compared to the valley

Everything in the world is cheap compared to the Valley, that any comparison is pretty much a meme at this point.

You can't possibly tell me with a straight face that Munich real estate is cheap even when you account for local salaries.

Munich is the embodiment of the Bay Area in Germany when accounting for living costs, except without the high paying jobs. I have multiple friends who moved there to work in engineering after graduating and they're starting to move elsewhere once they enter their 30s because they got tired of living in shared apartments(WGs) and realized they could never afford to buy anything worthy of having a family unless you're lucky enough to get into an executive position at a top company since ICs there aren't valued as much as they are in the valley so their salaries stay low and job hopping for better pay is frowned upon.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by gyulai on Sunday February 09, 2020 @08:43AM (#22282046)
First off: I have lived & worked in Munich and done exactly what you describe (now live in the countryside working for a remote company) but it is still only a minority of people who [can] do that. It is certainly not the case that everybody is doing it. The ecosystem is alive and well.

In my various data sources tracking job advertising, Munich has been and continues to be where almost all of the interesting jobs are based in Bavaria, and I'm not seeing falling real estate prices at all.

> Munich is the embodiment of the Bay Area in Germany

I'd argue that in many ways it is worse than the Bay Area in the sense that the pay-differential, though in existence, is not nearly as pronounced. Stack Overflow keeps pestering me with emails about jobs that it has classified as "high pay jobs" for Munich. The salary beneath those job ads is usually something like €80k/year before taxes (which are extremely high in Germany). This must seem like a steal to a company like Apple. And this is in a city that has one of the best technical universities on the planet, an extremely vibrant engineering scene, and offers a better quality of life than the Bay Area at lower prices to any senior Apple executive who might want/need to move there from the Bay Area. -- My initial statement holds in that this is a "special opportunity" for Apple, that must be worth capturing for them.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ChuckNorris89 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @09:14AM (#22282179)
How is €80k an extremely high salary in Germany when a nice apartment in Munich is closing on €800k?

Fells like a place with Bay Area prices but without the pay.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by gyulai on Sunday February 09, 2020 @09:39AM (#22282289)
I'm saying TAXES are extremely high. Getting paid €80k/yr before taxes in Munich is a bad joke, but is unfortunately where the market is. Many people are living that bad joke. -- Stop disagreeing with me, please, when there really is no disagreement here.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ChuckNorris89 on Monday February 10, 2020 @04:10AM (#22287520)
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sounds like I was disagreeing with you. May I ask how did you get a remote position in Germany?
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by gyulai on Monday February 10, 2020 @05:00AM (#22287750)
By working for a remote-only company that's based out of the U.S. but allows people to live anywhere they want globally. Whenever I get contacted by a German-based headhunter working for a German company, I tell them that I'm perfectly willing to talk, but only if it's going to be a remote position and that they (the headhunters) need to do more to educate their clients on the benefits of remote. -- But I might as well be talking to a wall when I do that. It's just not happening.

I've found that German-based companies are perfectly willing to pay 2x - 3x for an onsite freelancer than they would pay for an onsite employee, but they just don't do remote.

Since U.S.-based remote-only companies don't pay nearly as well as U.S.-based companies doing onsite - in my experience[!] -, this means that I could actually be earning more by doing onsite freelancing for German companies than doing remote for U.S. companies, but if you factor in the time & money for commuting and the increased cost of living from spending a lot of time in the cities where German companies offering interesting opportunities tend to be based, my disposable income/rate of savings, purchasing power, and quality of life are actually all better by doing remote.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ChuckNorris89 on Monday February 10, 2020 @06:57AM (#22288348)
That matches my experience with recruiters in Austria exactly where if you ask about being allowed to work remotely, most will give you a look like you just insulted their mothers.

The thing about recruiters you gotta keep in mind is, they're not your friends and they're not here to help you land your dream job. You're just a meal ticket to them and they just want to find some sucker to quickly fill the position as they're in competition with the other recruiters so whoever gets the position filled first gets paid, the others are left hanging. If you start making demands that the employers don't want to hear like remote work, they'll realize you're not a sucker and they won't get their money with you so they'll drop you as a candidate all together even if you would be a great fit for the position.

My question to you was how to you proceed to find good remote jobs? Linkedin? HN? Any advice is appreciated. My email is in my profile if you want to go private.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by pkos98 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:10PM (#22283401)
According to the UBS Real Estate Bubble Index 2019 [0], Munich is the city with the highest property bubble risk...So your perception of "Fells like a place with Bay Area prices but without the pay" holds some truth.

[0]: https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-management/chief-invest...

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by thecleaner on Sunday February 09, 2020 @06:11AM (#22281543)
Why is job hopping frowned upon ? I mean this seems to be some ploy to prevent workers from increasing their market value. It seems weird that salaries are shit in Germany when in fact the country touts itself as one of engineers.
Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by ChuckNorris89 on Sunday February 09, 2020 @06:27AM (#22281589)
It is a ploy to keep wages low and unfortunately it seems to be working as most employees have bought into this belief that nobody will hire you anymore if you job hop every 2-3 years, at least in traditional German engineering companies, although it might be more lax in Berlin's hip software scene.

Germany is indeed a country of engineers, but poorly paid ones.

Re:Google's expansion plans show why Canada's tech boom is h... by TulliusCicero on Sunday February 09, 2020 @01:49PM (#22283612)
And yet Germany's engineer salaries are still substantially better than, say, France, let alone Spain or Italy.

In the large, European salaries for technical professionals are just way worse than American equivalents.