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Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by bgorman on Friday February 07, 2020 @12:38PM (#22268507)
I absolutely disagree.

These phones were unusable with the throttling. I switched to Android because my iPhone 6 was unusable less than 3 years after getting it.

This is like saying that an appropriate fix for a car manufacture is to limit the maximum speed of a car to 25 miles per hour. It breaks so many use cases that the car becomes worthless.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by ninkendo on Friday February 07, 2020 @12:57PM (#22268726)
> This is like saying that an appropriate fix for a car manufacture is to limit the maximum speed of a car to 25 miles per hour. It breaks so many use cases that the car becomes worthless.

Would you prefer the car simply turn off entirely while driving at highway speeds? Because phones with this issue would turn off entirely below certain charge levels, when the batteries had this issue.

A more appropriate analogy would be that your car's fuel pump could randomly fail at highway speeds when below 1/2 tank, so the manufacturer just started arbitrarily limiting the car to drive 25mph to avoid the pump shutting off, when it detected this issue.

Point being, the real problem is not the mitigation they employed, but the fact that they didn't tell users in any way, users just saw a slower phone (equivalent to a slower car.) If my car detected a fuel pump issue for me and said "Fuel pump needs replacing, car is limited to 25mph when below half-tank to avoid catastrophic failure, please take to service center", it would be acceptable. Arbitrarily limiting to 25mph without any indication why, not so much.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by samsonradu on Friday February 07, 2020 @04:55PM (#22271438)
I think people would prefer to know about it and be in charge of the decision.

Unlike a car, a phone doesn’t pose a threat to my safety so I’d like to at least turn the throttling on/off according to my needs - given that Apple provides accurate information about the implications.

In retrospect throttling might look like a good idea, but back then it was outright bizarre.

Some people were already suspecting that older models don’t get along with newer software, but there was no certainty.

I remember I avoided some iOS updates without being sure it’s helping my phone - all until Whatsapp (or some other critical app) stopped working and I had to upgrade.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by jerkstate on Friday February 07, 2020 @01:23PM (#22269022)
as a matter of fact, modern cars (including French manufacturers like Renault) implement a "limp home" mode that limits the speed when problems are detected in the engine or transmission. It's hard to believe that Apple's action could be so poorly understood.
Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by kazinator on Friday February 07, 2020 @02:05PM (#22269503)
That limp home mode is not offered as the real fix, is it?

This Apple situations has a good analogy in car industry history: the Ford Pinto.

Speaking of car industry, Apple might have gone through a cost-benefit analysis reminiscent of the Pinto Memo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Cost%E2%80%93benefi...

Ford converted the likely injuries and deaths that would be caused by an unfixed issue into a dollar amount, and the compared that dollar amount to the cost of fixing the flaw in every vehicle.

Apple might have done the same sort of cost-benefit analysis: as in, just let the throttling cover up the flaw so the phone doesn't abruptly shut off, and then we only have to deal with the lower cost that comes from any complaints about performance, from those who notice.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by achamayou on Friday February 07, 2020 @01:35PM (#22269124)
A substantial difference as others pointed out is that Apple did this quietly, whereas limp mode is typically notified to the driver about loudly as anything can be.
Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by kazinator on Friday February 07, 2020 @01:31PM (#22269077)
> Would you prefer the car simply turn off entirely while driving at highway speeds?

If the vehicle's age is only the equivalent of a phone being two or three years old, I would prefer a real fix, free of charge, in addition to any safety mitigation. I wouldn't want the mitigation to be regarded as the fix.

People have decade-old phones that aren't throttled and still have usable battery life at the same time.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by ninkendo on Friday February 07, 2020 @02:25PM (#22269756)
I don’t disagree, and that’s what Apple did: they implemented the battery control panel which let you know your battery’s health, gave an alert when a bad battery was causing throttling, and extended a battery replacement program for affected models.

Nobody’s saying their initial fix wasn’t flawed, I’m only saying that “throttling is bad” is an ill-thought-out knee-jerk reaction.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by kazinator on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:40PM (#22270668)
I wonder why they didn't use this simple argument in court, or else why it didn't work.
Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by pbhjpbhj on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:15PM (#22272210)
Standard practice is engine check light, then mechanic looks at it, then you replace the part for £X using one of several generics, or a first-party part if you want.

So, Apple could instead have had a "battery EOL" warning, sold batteries and specs to 3rd party market, and ensured batteries were easily replaceable.

Oh, why didn't they do that I wonder, maybe because they've spent the last decade making their stuff hard to repair and ensuring parts aren't available in order to encourage upgrades instead of repairs? Surely not, not Apple, they hate sacrificing the welfare of others for the sake of their profit!

If the idea that Apple would rig this didn't fit perfectly in the rest of their narrative then perhaps the judgement wouldn't have come.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by ninkendo on Saturday February 08, 2020 @11:40AM (#22276618)
They did implement a battery EOL warning. What are you blathering about?

It’s been established many times, my argument is not about their initial response, but what they implemented in the next iOS version. A battery control center that tells you your battery’s health, a warning when it’s in bad enough shape that it’s being throttled and needs replacing, the ability to control whether it’s throttled, and a recall/replacement program for affected models.

The initial fix was to throttle the phones, but we all (including myself) agree that was insufficient. But I also believe engineering resources are finite, and I have trouble believing apple would have been able to do the whole control center/notification thing as the first emergency fix.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:49PM (#22277554)
Ah, OK, so when the battery started failing a dialog came up "battery expired: do you want to enter low power mode" and people clicked yes?

I thought that instead of telling people they'd just underclocked all the systems secretly?

Do you have a reference for what the on-screen warnings looked like?

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by ninkendo on Saturday February 08, 2020 @01:59PM (#22277619)
They did the throttling without any dialogs in the beginning. In the very next point release of iOS, that evolved into a battery health control panel where you can see the health of your battery, and it alerts you if it’s being throttled.

I don’t know why this is so hard to understand: their initial response was wrong, but they corrected it. Everyone who says “why didn’t they do X” is ignoring that they did the right thing, eventually.

Implementing the battery control panel the first time would have been the best route, but developing such a thing takes time, and with sudden shutdowns happening for a large percentage of customers, they did a stopgap that was questionable. Is it really so evil to make a quick hack at first and make a better solution in a software update? I feel like the whole industry does this.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by BubRoss on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:25PM (#22272295)
If you are making high end cars and they don't last three years you have a big quality problem.
Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by Already__Taken on Friday February 07, 2020 @03:56PM (#22270835)
If the car detects damage then this is exactly what happens in limp mode. https://mechanicbase.com/engine/limp-mode/

Can't us computer people just agree to stop using car analogies?

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by mh8h on Friday February 07, 2020 @01:00PM (#22268761)
Another issue with iPhone 6 was the amount of RAM it had. With the newer iOS and updated apps, the memory consumption went up and the device would run out of memory, slowing down everything.
Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by scarface74 on Friday February 07, 2020 @05:37PM (#22271885)
So does Android use some type of magical battery technology that doesn’t degrade over time?

And good luck getting operating system updates after only two years on Android.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by puszczyk on Friday February 07, 2020 @12:51PM (#22268647)
Idk, anecdotally my iPhone 6s (ok, it’s 6a not 6) is perfectly usable 4 years after the purchase. I have the throttling on.
Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by Infernal on Friday February 07, 2020 @01:16PM (#22268942)
My iPhone 6 that I bought at launch was useable for all five years it was supported by iOS, on the original battery. Only upgraded for iOS 13. I still switch it on as a Netflix terminal sometimes, no issues.

Crucially, I never once left it plugged in all night - I believe not constantly fully charging the battery massively extends the useful life.

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by thatfrenchguy on Friday February 07, 2020 @06:02PM (#22272095)
That actually happened to my car once, due to some defect it got stuck to 30km/h.
Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by Wowfunhappy on Friday February 07, 2020 @01:23PM (#22269019)
That's probably not the throttling. That's new iOS being too heavy for your old hardware.

Which is the bigger problem here. iOS devices are completely impossible to downgrade, so if an update slows down your phone, you're stuck.

It's hugely wasteful. iOS isn't substantially more capable than it was five years ago—why is it so much heavier?

Re:France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down... by nerdponx on Friday February 07, 2020 @01:32PM (#22269100)
Forget impossible to downgrade. Stop pushing updates on devices that can't run them.