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Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @11:42AM (#22237661)
I used to have this 65c816 fantasy. That Atari or Commodore had put out a machine in this lineage rather than jumping to the 68000. On paper it looks appealing -- 6502 compatibility, 24-bit address bus, super fast interrupt responsiveness, very cycle efficient.

So I wasted some time last year futzing around on the C256 Phoenix project -- wrote an emulator for it (or some aspect of what it looked like on paper) since I didn't have a board yet, wrote some code for it, had a falling out with the creator, a bit of a saga. In any case, what I learned in this process is that I really don't like the '816. It was a hack bolted onto the side of the 6502. Bill Mensch couldn't or wouldn't add new addressing modes and register sets to the instruction set to allow 8-bit and 16-bit to co-exist, so there's a constant awkward mode switch back and forth in terms of how the registers are viewed. Even worse, it has a 24-bit address bus but no registers can deal with 24-bit pointer values, so a constant awkward play with using indirect addressing or using multiple instructions to modify addresses or switch pages and so on. And then on top of that the physical chip doesn't break out all 24 address lines, so interfacing the thing is a pain.

The 816 is still produced 35 years later, and available in PLCC and SMT form factors. But they've had this 35 years to make a version of the chip that breaks out all the address lines instead of multiplexing it, which would make sense with the higher pin count available in SMT. But they haven't done it. Why? They went through the effort of making a microcontroller version of it that actually does break out all 24 lines, which nobody really uses. But no MPU.

In the end the 816 was a bit of a hack done especially for Apple. I understand why Mensch did it, but they could have done better.

In contrast, the Z80 has continued to evolve. You can get a brand new eZ80 etc. with large address space and higher clock speeds and excellent cycle efficiency, etc. and not have to muck around with demultiplexing the address bus, etc.

So all said I now understand why engineers at Atari and Commodore and Apple said "f it" about the 6502 and switched to the 68000. The real tragedy of the late 80s/90s era was that Motorola pissed away the excellency of 680x0 by jumping first to the 88000 (failure) and then the PowerPC (less of a failure but not a success for Motorola). Meanwhile Intel kept backwards compatibility and squeezed every ounce it could out of the existing x86, and that's one reason they did better and Wintel maintained dominance.

Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by mondoshawan on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:07PM (#22238024)
After spending time with the eZ80, I have to say most of your complaints with the 816's addressing modes are also concerns on the eZ80. The only way to address 24-bits of RAM is in ADL mode, which requires a specific mode switch, and then that screws up interrupts if you stay there. Further, code density is much worse in ADL mode, so staying there most of the time will actually make 24-bits of addressable RAM a problem. There's no provision for doing I/O block transfers in the ISA, so that makes data transfers on that half of the bus... questionable as to why that bus is even present.
Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:09PM (#22238068)
Aw, that's sad to hear.

In retrospect Motorola's 6809 (and then the 6309) probably did the best job of adding 16-bit (and even 32-bit) support to their register set. If they had taken it further and added a 24 or 32 bit address bus, that would have been nifty.

Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by Wildgoose on Wednesday February 05, 2020 @09:53AM (#22247108)
I believe the Acorn Atom nearly used the 6809 CPU. (Vague recollections from a very long time ago).
Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by rasz on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:10PM (#22238081)
65c816 was as bad as 8088, didnt stop IBM from steamrolling whole PC industry with it. Commodore switching to 68000 threw away their existing 30% market share and wast software library out the window. At the very least they should of embedded compatibility mode into Amiga computers to let users migrate from C64 overnight.
Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by bryanlarsen on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:00PM (#22237945)
A Z800 type design that came out in 1980 probably would have sucked too. A 16 bit 6502 shouldn't have sucked because the 6502 is a nice simple micro, but Z80 is a lot bigger, and making a 16 bit version of it in 1980 with the transistor and packaging budget of 1980 probably would have had a whole bunch of nasty compromises.

But our opinion as engineers doesn't really matter much. x86 beat the 68K even though the 68K is a nice chip and the 8086 ... isn't.

Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:05PM (#22238001)
In the 80s it beat the 68k by marketshare but didn't completely destroy it. Between the Mac, the Atari ST, the Amiga, and a bunch of Unix workstation vendors the 680x0 had a fairly large market share. But Motorola killed it when they could have evolved it. Intel evolved the 486 to the Pentium, and squeezed everything it could out of the ISA -- but Motorola sidetracked onto 88000 and PowerPC and didn't take the 68k past the 68060. And they dragged Apple with them onto the PowerPC. And honestly, Macs from that era _sucked_ -- PowerPC could emulate the 68k but they crashed constantly and it wasn't just because of the OS's lack of memory protection and the like. The systems were full of bugs because of the architecture switch. Waste of $$ and engineering time.
Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:07PM (#22238029)
Also, if you squint right... a "z800" type design was basically the 286/386/486, no? The Z80 was a derivation of the 8080 architecture. 8086/286/386/486/Pentium was, too.
Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by mark-r on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @07:15PM (#22242647)
That amount of squinting would wreck your eyesight. The x86 line wasn't even close to binary compatible. The assembly language wasn't too hard to convert, but it still required work.
Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by lproven on Thursday February 06, 2020 @05:26PM (#22261128)
You mean, like a CMD SuperCPU?

https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SuperCPU

I hear they run Geos great.

If you want a cleaner ROM and a better BASIC, there's the Acorn Communicator: http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/Communi...

Not a games machine, though.

Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by LIV2 on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @01:57PM (#22239527)
The 65816 was designed to Apple specifications which explains the annoying 64K blocks etc.

IMHO multiplexed address isn't a problem as it's simple logic to fix but having to keep track of 64K segments is more painful

Re:The Chloe 280SE, a New Z80 Microcomputer by rasz on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @04:26PM (#22241162)
That would be surprising considering Apple didnt know about this processor and had to be convinced to even give 2GS a chance, according to computer history museum Oral History of William David "Bill" Mensch. Not to mention wikis "Steve Wozniak said in January 1985 that Apple was investigating the 65816".