News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by aazaa on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:09PM (#22226188)
> ... when the German Saver is who would benefit if they decided tomorrow to run deficits for the next 10 years.

The German Saver knows better than most that inflation destroys savings.

Inflation benefits debtors by allowing them to pay back their loans in depreciated currency. Germany isn't exactly a nation of debtors, although most of Europe is.

This is a looming political issue that's only just beginning.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by Despegar on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:10PM (#22226208)
>The German Saver knows better than most that inflation destroys savings.

Yeah this is not the outcome Germany or the EU needs to worry about. It's experiencing Japanese deflation for 20 years.

>This is a looming political issue that's only just beginning.

Yes there's been plenty of hard money cranks that have said this for 10 years since the Great Financial Crisis in the US. Zero Hedge, gold bugs, hedge fund managers, etc have all been sounding the alarm about "money printing" and the deficit. There's no inflation in sight.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by yorwba on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:40PM (#22226624)
> It's experiencing Japanese deflation for 20 years.

GDP per capita (PPP) in Japan has more than doubled over the past 30 years. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat...

Slow growth is only a problem if you rely on investing to generate your income. Otherwise, even no growth at all is fine.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by AWildC182 on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:42PM (#22229504)
Have there been any major issues with declining QOL in Japan? It might be a cultural barrier but aside from the deflation stories making the rounds, I don't hear much about them suffering because of it.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by raxxorrax on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @10:48AM (#22236882)
They probably don't and economic analysts are probably just bad or lying.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by llcoolv on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:41PM (#22230638)
There is no inflation? You haven't seen the insanely skyrocketing property prices in pretty much every major EU city? And because rent/mortgage took the lion's share in increased cost in other products it manifested as shrinkflation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by samsonradu on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:43PM (#22229516)
Japanese deflation is brought up a lot. However it didn’t really strike me as a troubled economy when visiting - on the contrary, things looked quite well.

Can someone elaborate on why deflation is so bad?

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by toss1 on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:30PM (#22230044)
Deflation is bad because it is a self-reinforcing slowdown in the economy.

The money gets more valuable and the assets get cheaper. so the incentive in every micro-decision is to hoard money and not spend. Why spend when the same thing will get cheaper tomorrow/next week/month/year...?

So, the key factor of the Velocity of Money declines, and the entire economy either grinds or crashes to a (relative) halt.

My understanding is that deflation is also very hard to get out of. Requires massive liquidity injections, and doing that without creating a crisis of confidence by overshooting is tough.

For the current situation, my working conjecture (w/o running hard numbers/models) is that the Great Recession 11yrs ago destroyed so much wealth/value, and was so deflationary, that the central banks may never soon fill the hole with new liquidity. The evidence is that despite nearly continuous quantitative easing and other CB programs, over a decade later, we're still seeing this kind of phenomena - they just can't create & maintain even minimal inflation. Not sure what to do about it, but that's what I see...

(edit: typos)

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by chii on Monday February 03, 2020 @06:28PM (#22230546)
Deflationary problems seems to me a overblown issue, and the cure may be worse than the disease.

Inflation prevents low income earners from saving, but they aren't in a position to take risk and invest. Therefore, it causes their networth to drop in relation to the wealthy (who can take risks to keep up by investing).

Inflation also keep wages down, as it's easier to pay the same wage , and any increase must be above inflation rate to remain at the same purchasing power.

Inflation also leads to speculation, rather than to invest in productivity increases.

With deflation, you end up not spending as much on discretionary/luxury goods, and only spend the minimum necessary. The prevailing theory is that this leads to slowdown in the economy - but I say it leads to low to zero mal-investments. If you have a high chance that your capital is going to have more purchasing power later, you would only invest in good, known ventures that is not speculative (e.g., building basic infrastructure that has a sound business model, rather than building fad apps).

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by toss1 on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @05:24PM (#22241720)
Of course transient deflation can be a good thing. Adn deflation as we are now accustomed in the tech industry is a very good thing - it is caused by an increase in the quality/supply of available goods, rather than a decrease in the money supply.

However a deflationary spiral of declining money supply (usually created by destruction of value), where labor utilization & wages decline makes things much harder for ordinary people.

That said, I'd like to note the the above answer was to a question about what is bad about deflation. The good thing about deflation may be that it tends to be followed by increasing growth, possibly in no small part because central banks try to do something about it.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by kyuudou on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:26AM (#22232690)
EXCELLENT synopsis. Also, some consider inflation outright theft from the middle and lower classes or in the least morally questionable.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by mindslight on Monday February 03, 2020 @07:15PM (#22230901)
> Deflation is bad because it is a self-reinforcing slowdown in the economy.

If you care about the environment, global warming, resource depletion, etc this is a good thing. Are we not currently producing more stuff than can be reasonably used?

> Why spend when the same thing will get cheaper tomorrow/next week/month/year...?

This is exactly how computing technology has been for several decades. Plenty of spending still goes on, because items have immediate utility. Being able to save by buying a loaf of bread tomorrow doesn't matter when you need to eat today.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by raxxorrax on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @10:50AM (#22236901)
But this is all conjecture from economic theories that might or might not be true.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by raxxorrax on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @10:47AM (#22236862)
The Japan is failing meme is astonishing. It might have some slight demographic problems, but the solution of increasing the workforce without limits is more a failure of economic analysts than the economy of Japan.

Many countries would kill to have these problems, which might just be completely irrelevant. The numbers from Japan look pretty good.

Deflation isn't inherently good, inflation isn't inherently good. Most popular economic indicators are probably trash.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by eecc on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:41PM (#22230152)
Exactly. It seems that we have unfortunately fixated on over-protecting winners, those that can take their rewards and reinvest them in something that is increasingly reducing to a financial scheme, debt in fact; over-protected, “low risk” and ethically enshrined.

Which is metaphorically like rewarding couch-potatoes.

Rather that letting the winners enjoy their success, while wiping it out in the long term if it’s not funneled towards material investments that can benefit also the “non winners”, with jobs and quality of life improvement.

Seems like the narcissistic Randians are at the steering wheel, and no stepping down in sight

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by QuesnayJr on Monday February 03, 2020 @07:29PM (#22230994)
Running deficits is not the same as inflation. There's no place for Germans to save, and its because the German government won't borrow. A sensible policy would be for the German government to borrow and invest heavily in infrastructure. Instead Germany has opted for policies that will cause it to teeter on the edge of recession for decades.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by conanbatt on Monday February 03, 2020 @07:31PM (#22231017)
> A sensible policy would be for the German government to borrow and invest heavily in infrastructure.

Or reduce taxation and make everyone but government richer.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by QuesnayJr on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @09:26AM (#22235825)
That would also work.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by dx034 on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @02:19AM (#22233203)
There are places for Germans to save but they really dislike investments or any type of risk. Sure, Germany could borrow more and issue bonds but I doubt this would change yields for those bonds so much that investing in them is worth it for retail investors. The demand by institutional investors (insurances, pension funds) easily outweigh retail demand.

Also, how would Germany invest in infrastructure if order books at construction companies are filled 1-2 years in advance? If anything, they'd fuel inflation and price out private investment.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by QuesnayJr on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @09:30AM (#22235875)
Germans have three choices -- either they invest in risky assets, they increase deficit spending to increase the supply of safe assets, or they accept permanently low interest rates and hoard euros.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by LeoTinnitus on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:35PM (#22226546)
I'd normally agree but I think I just have more faith in Keysnian economics. You basically pay for today with the future. If you no longer can afford the future, you still have the infrastructure or asset that exists. Normally it isn't a 0 valued item (unless we're talking bankrupt securities, worthless commodities, or education) so even in an economic crisis, there is something tangible that came be used as collateral.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by blazespin on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:23PM (#22226364)
Savers are bad for the economy at large though because they don't invest in high risk businesses, but rather in low risk assets (RE, bonds, etc) that do nothing for no one. They're like scrooge mcduck swimming in their pile of gold.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by jldugger on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:56PM (#22226860)
What an absurd position. First off, risk isn't the goal, reward is. Risk is just the price of increasing rewards. But we shouldn't mistake the two, or valorize risk itself. Any high risk business not taking risk mitigations available to it is a poor one. And any investor who isn't using low risk, uncorrelated assets to juice their returns is missing out!

Secondly. Bonds are not assets that "do nothing for no one;" they don't sit there in a vault. They are a loan to busineses, and they allow businesses and governments to build factories, bridges, and even other companies. They invite additional capital into the market, which can be used to make more high risk / high reward investments, for a small cut of the rewards. Even savings is a loan to the bank, which recirculates the money with their own loan desk. Negative interest rates in Germany aside, very little money in the system sits in an idle 'pile of gold.'

And that's really the problem here -- electronic deposits with the ECB cost banks money, so they're not using the central bank. The money still exists, and economy is still moving, but the normal holder of cash deposits is charging instead of paying for it. This is why it was theorized that 0 percent was the lower bound on interest rates, so it would be a more surprising outcome if this sort of thing didn't happen.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by blazespin on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:12PM (#22227092)
Not true. The government sells bonds to suck money out of the economy, and buys them back to add more. How the fed operates.

Inflation is like ante at a poker game. Without the ante, everybody would just keep folding until they get the nuts and there would be no action.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by jldugger on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:41PM (#22227405)
> The government sells bonds

Well, it's how the FOMC operates. There's plenty of state and local bonds issued that match the model. But if you want to play the #notallbonds card, be my guest.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by ksdale on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:28PM (#22226447)
Savers may not invest in high risk businesses, but the opposite of saving is not investing, it's spending, generally on consumer goods rather than on anything "productive". There's a different conversation to be had about how much consumer spending benefits those high risk businesses, but only a fraction of income earned by a business gets reinvested into plant and equipment in any case.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by vraivroo on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:50PM (#22228208)
investing is a type of spending
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by imtringued on Monday February 03, 2020 @08:33PM (#22231454)
>that do nothing for no one

I'm not sure you understand these assets if you think they do nothing. If you want to rent an apartment then someone has to build and own it first. If you want to borrow money for your business then someone has to save money and put it aside so it becomes available to you. Your comparison to scrooge mcduck doesn't make sense because you're assuming that the money will never be used. If your goal is to save 20000€ over 7 years to buy a car without financing then you would be incredibly foolish to put that money into a risky asset. If the stock market crashes the same year you wanted to buy your car the you will need to obtain liquidity by borrowing money from a bank (remember those stupid scrooge mcducks swimming in their pile of gold? now you're begging them to give you money) and getting the car loan you wanted to avoid with the hope that in 3 years the value of your asset recovers and you can finally sell it to pay off the loan.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by modo_mario on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @01:12AM (#22232887)
>If the stock market crashes the same year you wanted to buy your car the you will need to obtain liquidity by borrowing money from a bank (remember those stupid scrooge mcducks swimming in their pile of gold? now you're begging them to give you money)

Are banks not able to in effect create money in todays system?

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by wtmt on Friday February 07, 2020 @09:17PM (#22273319)
Banks can create an amount of money beyond what they get in deposits, but that’s limited by the fractional reserve system and the amount they hold as deposits (this makes some simple assumptions, but is mostly true). They cannot create an infinite amount of money by themselves (without a central bank’s intervention).
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by rusk on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:28PM (#22226454)
All well and good when youve strong economic growth, but all that stored capital comes in handy when there’s a shock. It provides a way to make money from your less well prepared neighbours ...

But seriously, there’s no harm damping things a bit. Runaway growth can have its issues too. I reckon best is to keep your inflation just ahead of population growth.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by Aperocky on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:27PM (#22226414)
Savers are bad for business because liquidity stops when money hits them.

US has such a strong economy because barely anyone save. Japan had so much savings that they literally need exports to survive, there’s no home market to speak of because everyone save so much. Once export tanks, their economy tank.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by econcon on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:36AM (#22232734)
Exports account for 25% of Japan's GDP. So in all - it has strong local market.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by nonconvergent on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:00PM (#22229032)
Don't banks require "savers" as their source of capital for lending?
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by ahakki on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:41PM (#22229489)
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by QuesnayJr on Monday February 03, 2020 @07:56PM (#22231186)
That document is widely misread. It's true that the bank doesn't have to wait around for a saver to make a loan (they can borrow from other banks), but at the same time banks do fund most of their loans through deposits. Look at the balance sheet for any commercial bank, and you will see most of their liabilities are in the form of deposits.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by redis_mlc on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:28PM (#22229348)
In the 1940s and 1950s. Not now, at least for large US banks.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by wefarrell on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:19PM (#22226305)
What good is the EU if its wealthier members are unwilling to subsidize the poorer ones? Germans want the benefits of federation without the drawbacks.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by econcon on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @12:41AM (#22232759)
While EU does subsidize poor EU countries but we must question what's the impact of that subsidizing.

1. EU is single market 2. Germany micraclously had strong currency at the time EU was created, so Germany businesses bought everything in cheaper EU countries and winners became bigger winners engulfing all small players across whole EU 3. EU taxes winners of the game and sends some money to improve the quality of life in poor nations but this ensures that poor EU nation get trapped in middle range and never surpass Germany.

They've managed to get all benefits of "imperialism" without any of the downsides.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by conanbatt on Wednesday February 05, 2020 @09:14AM (#22246807)
Artificially strong currencies tend to produce trade deficits, not investment surpluses. I know Germans save and invest a lot, but I doubt they can go against such an enticing macro-economic rule.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by rusk on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:23PM (#22226363)
It allows DE to have an artificially devalued currency which benefits their exports.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by mamon on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:30PM (#22228643)
EU isn't really subisidizing anyone - the actual flow of money is from poor towards the wealthy:

https://www.politico.eu/article/what-rich-countries-get-wron...

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by luckylion on Monday February 03, 2020 @04:14PM (#22229186)
This confuses public subsidies with private money flows.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by mamon on Monday February 03, 2020 @05:41PM (#22230143)
Not confuses, just gives fuller picture - the whole deal between old and new EU members was: open up your markets, and we'll give you access to our "cohesion funds" from EU budget. Now you can see who won and who lost on this deal.
Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by luckylion on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @02:31AM (#22233253)
Again, it's taxes vs private money. And "the whole deal" really was about a politically unified Europe, the "purely economic union" wasn't a thing anymore when the east expansion happened. That certainly was parts of it, but let's not create alternative history.

Besides, "lost and won" is terribly weird when you just look at money flows but exclude goods. Hey, sell me your $30k car for $1000, you'll be the winner, because you get $1000 from me and we'll not look at the car. Not saying that that's an accurate description of EU-trade, just that it's weird to only look at money flows.

Another problem with that in general is that it's not just about old and new EU members. Luxembourg is an old member, is the tax oasis that works hard to help companies evade taxes in France and Germany, and is also leeching EU subsidies, not contributing to the EU funds.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by throwawaylolx on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @06:04AM (#22234281)
>Again, it's taxes vs private money.

That's the entire point of the article, the author is not "confusing" them:

>The talks cannot just be about public money, and should not become a brawl between "net contributors" and "net beneficiaries."

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by luckylion on Tuesday February 04, 2020 @10:05AM (#22236291)
> That's the entire point of the article, the author is not "confusing" them

I very much believe they are intentionally confusing them because it makes their point. In a "that's basically the same, don't look too hard, just listen to these huge numbers" kind of way.

Re:German banks are hoarding so many euros they need more va... by petre on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:48PM (#22226735)
The EMU is about the federalisation of Europe through the back door.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5TPpuIslzG4