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Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by samatman on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:12AM (#22225454)
I'm reminded of Feynman's famous anecdote about the Millikan oil drop experiment: Millikan underestimated the charge of the electron, and over the ensuing years, subsequent measurements slowly but surely converged on the correct value.

Why? Because experimenters who got the correct value figured it must be too high, and ran the experiment again until they got a more-erroneous value, one that was nonetheless higher. Eventually it worked itself out.

But climate modeling isn't measuring something objective and static like the charge of the electron. It's prediction. I'm afraid that the incentives are to credit models that predict more warming just a bit more than those which predict less; the expected effect would be that the predicted warming effect would get larger over time.

Please note that I'm not calling climate science a "Cargo Cult", as Feynman put it; I accept the basic premise of anthropogenic warming on first principles, and see that historic measurements (not to speak of recent ones) show a warming trend. There is cause to be concerned.

Nonetheless, it would be surprising if climate modeling, which is inherently inexact and involves irreducible guesswork, didn't drift toward the more alarming, due to similar social forces to those identified in Feynman's essay.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by daveliepmann on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:08PM (#22227030)
Kevin Anderson (@KevinClimate) speaks prolifically [1] about how the (perverse) incentives in climate science are actually in the opposite direction from your expectation, towards less alarmism. Policymakers want to hear that the problem is fixable with little disruption to the status quo. These policymakers and their representatives are more likely to dismiss climate predictions that require radical action. This leads many climate modelers to include tricks such as negative emission technologies (NETs) -- which are pure science fiction -- in order to keep emission reduction prescriptions friendly to their audience. Thus, the models become more moderate while the situation grows more dire.

One recent example of such a dynamic was Germany's recent plan to phase out coal (by 2038). The committee that drew up the recommendations was overruled on several key elements, such as the decision to not to open a new coal power plant this year. Although the committee was and is correct that opening new coal power plants is not compatible with our CO2 emissions goals under the Paris agreement, which are in turn our best estimate of the maximum we can emit and still have civilization past the next couple decades, lawmakers didn't want to hear it.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk49vAmNoiQ

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by polotics on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:24AM (#22225617)
With the violent hammering that scientist raising the alarm have received over the past 20 years or so, I would suspect any results-selection bias to have pushed in the other direction. What me may be seeing now may be reduction in bias, caused by the ample observations coming up.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by imtringued on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:52PM (#22227538)
> I'm afraid that the incentives are to credit models that predict more warming just a bit more than those which predict less;

You've got it backwards. The models are known to be conservative because "alarmist" scientists have received a bad reputation when they are proven wrong. It is safer to pretend to be ignorant and underestimate the numbers.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by Misdicorl on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:46PM (#22226702)
I'm reminded of Feynman's famous anecdote about the Millikan oil drop experiment: Millikan underestimated the charge of the electron, and over the ensuing years, subsequent measurements slowly but surely converged on the correct value.

Why? Because experimenters who got the correct value figured it must be too high, and ran the experiment again until they got a more-erroneous value, one that was nonetheless higher. Eventually it worked itself out.

But climate modeling isn't measuring something objective and static like the charge of the electron. It's prediction. I'm afraid that the incentives are to credit models that predict less warming just a bit more than those which predict more; the expected effect would be that the predicted warming effect would only slowly approach the more dreadful reality.

Please note that I'm not calling climate science a "Cargo Cult", as Feynman put it; I accept the basic premise of anthropogenic warming on first principles, and see that historic measurements (not to speak of recent ones) show a warming trend. There is cause to be extremely concerned.

Nonetheless, it would be surprising if climate modeling, which is inherently inexact and involves irreducible guesswork, didn't drift toward the less alarming, due to similar social forces to those identified in Feynman's essay.

You're not actually saying anything of merit here. Flipping the sign on your paragraphs requires almost no work to get a meaningful result (which doesnt contradict known facts). You've made an assertion (climate models are likely to overpredict warming rather than underpredict) and handwave at some random shit that makes it sound nice. The actual assertion has zero argument behind it.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by jellicle on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:39AM (#22225799)
So close, but not quite.

The oil drop results (Millikan was less than 1% off, by the way) show the pressure on scientists to conform with the current status quo, the pressure NOT to release shocking or unexpected results. In climate science, that means underplaying the results, biasing them towards less catastrophic findings, and there's a great deal of evidence that that is what has been happening. For instance, the gold standard climate documents, the IPCC reports, represent a consensus and therefore if 99% of scientists believe 100 units of climate change is coming, and 1% of scientists believe no more than 30 units of climate change is coming, 30 units is what is reported (the amount everyone can agree on). This is a huge underreporting bias, only slowly corrected with each new report.

Good on you for your scientific approach, you just basically reversed the signs in your equation.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by samatman on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:54AM (#22226002)
I've read the AR5 synthesis report, and your description is simply inaccurate.

To use your numbers, the IPCC reports that 99% of scientists believe 100 units of climate change is coming, and 1% believe no more than 30.

It's less than 200 pages, I recommend actually reading it, rather than just guessing how the sausage is made, as you've done here.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by lopmotr on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:33PM (#22228679)
The ultimate proof is actual data that's steadily being collected as time moves forward. That surely culls off bad models as they're proven wrong. But I think it would only be helpful at reducing bias if we just look at the surviving old models rather than making new or updated ones that incorporate the new data or else the new models might still have a systemic bias in one direction or other.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by SiempreViernes on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:53PM (#22226811)
> I'm afraid that the incentives are to credit models that predict more warming just a bit more than those which predict less; the expected effect would be that the predicted warming effect would get larger over time.

This actually doesn't make any sense! In your valued Milikan example, the problem was subsequent experiments were biased towards lower values, meaning that for climate models the bias would be expected towards under heating models. In other words, the lesson from Milikan is that there is a risk our models aren't heating fast enough.

So by the quoted example we should be worry that our models under predicts, and yet Milikan is stood up to argue the models are too wild in their warming predictions?

[dead]
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by LMYahooTFY on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:38AM (#22225788)
This reads as remarkably dismissive of a well thought out comment about the difficulty of dialing in metrics and manifesting social pressures. Your comment in no way addressed these topics, and instead moved the line, beyond which lie "outright-deniers" (i.e. deluded people), further up to include anyone who expresses skepticism, or apparently who doesn't accept the coordinated work of thousands of scientists whole-sale and without question.

The result being, you equate someone expressing questions about the any parts of this process with deluded people. This doesn't seem conducive to healthy discussion.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by imtringued on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:00PM (#22227626)
No, the numbers don't matter anymore. Whether there will be 1.5°C warming or 4.5°C is simply no longer relevant. The steps needed to avoid either scenario are identical.

"patient" earth is sick. Will you cure him or not? That's the only important question.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by SiempreViernes on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:12PM (#22226233)
No, it's a pretty fair assessment of the more sophisticated arguments climate change deniers are forced into after extreme weather events we've been getting illustrate the steady increase of average temperature.

For that matter, I don't think you are making a honest argument here, as you paint experts coming together to check each others work as something bad. People don't generally object to the linux kernel simply because it is "the coordinated work of thousands".

Nor is it normal to pretend that there isn't dissent within the linux project, as you try with climate change by saying "anyone who expresses skepticism[sic]" isn't welcome. And you do this in a comment thread of an article that is explicitly about dissent (about details) within the climate community.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by shusson on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:46AM (#22225904)
I don't think the OP was suggesting we do nothing, but rather we should ground our fundamentals in the scientific method. We do not have another planet Earth to test climate change on. That doesn't mean we should do nothing, but we should also understand our limits in predicting a system like our planet Earth.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by admax88q on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:58AM (#22226067)
OP is arguing that the models are likely to overestimate warming/damage. The logical conclusion from there is that the damage isnt as bad as predicted and therefore less action needs to be taken.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by imtringued on Monday February 03, 2020 @02:02PM (#22227651)
That would only matter if you were taking any action at all. When you're doing nothing you simply don't care.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by cbHXBY1D on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:12PM (#22227094)
And this is truly textbook HN behavior when it comes to climate change. You see it over and over.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by SiempreViernes on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:51PM (#22226774)
Wow, yeah: the argument is pretty weird on a second reading.

There seems to be an effort to use the the historical example of Milikan, where a respected authority got a slightly low value, and all subsequent measurements all ended up above it, because that's where the truth was. Then it is claimed that likewise for climate change models above the average are preferred.

But this actually doesn't make any sense! First, because in the Milikan example the problem was subsequent experiments were biased conservative, meaning the bias would be expected towards under heating models. In other words, the lesson from Milikan is that there is a risk our models aren't heating fast enough.

So by the quoted example we should be worry that our models under predicts, and yet Milikan is stood up to argue the models are too wild in their warming predictions?

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by Reedx on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:27PM (#22226411)
Pointing out that climate models are predictions is not the problem. The models are in fact predictions and they accumulate errors the further out they project. That's just the reality. The problem is pretending otherwise. That muddies the waters and literally fuels and strengthens climate change deniers as it gives them a leg to stand on. Remove that leg. We need to make it harder to dismiss, which can be better accomplished by being clear and factual.

Here is the problem, here is the hard science, here is how we can fix it.

Flat earthers and the like don't get nearly as far in part because they have no such counterpoint to leverage. They remain on the fringes, not taken seriously. Climate change deniers could be relegated to the same fate if we'd be clear about predictions vs science, and ease up on the doomsaying. Doomsayers tend to be ignored for good reason. The world is always said to be ending, yet it never does. Instead it's become drastically better, historically. Global warming is a problem to be solved. Stick to the science.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by ohmyblock on Monday February 03, 2020 @03:44PM (#22228824)
It's become drastically better to the expense of the planet!
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by SiempreViernes on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:38PM (#22226605)
Climate change deniers fuel themselves, and mostly on the wish to avoid any sacrifice on their own part.

The post you are defending is doing more than simply pointing out that the models are models. It is also claiming, without any proof or even argument in support, that experts all over the world are only publishing high predictions.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by Reedx on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:45PM (#22227460)
You're just assuming their inner thoughts. Furthermore most who believe in climate change aren't exactly sacrificing, either. Still flying in airplanes (even private jets), using air conditioning, eating meat, using or pushing fast fashion, etc.

As for an argument, well, experts have been on the wrong side about things like climate predictions, stock predictions, economy, nutrition and so on many times. Even to terrible effect. We replaced fat with trans-fats and sugar, for example. So it's at least fair to be skeptical.

Personally, I'm on the side of science and climate change is a problem we need to solve. And I think we will because we tend to be good about solving slow moving disasters. Besides, optimism and hope about the future is a better strategy than seeding people with fear, doubt and anxiety.

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by texorcist on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:48PM (#22226739)
Maybe address the points instead of dismissing them with insult? That might work better at getting the middle to get on board.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by pinkfoot on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:48PM (#22227485)
The IPCCH has adressed every point you could imagine and then some.

See ipcch.ch

Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by cultus on Monday February 03, 2020 @01:45PM (#22227455)
People who are arguing in bad faith like this need to be called out. There is no scientific debate on this matter. If you think CO2 does not affect climate significantly, then you are anti-science and should probably find a different website. Should we not criticize anti-vaxxers as well?
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by koheripbal on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:20PM (#22226318)
This comment is inappropriate and should be removed. It violates the #1 fundamental rule of this forum - to argue the argument, not the arguer.
Re:Climate models are running red hot, and scientists don’t ... by SiempreViernes on Monday February 03, 2020 @12:31PM (#22226500)
The post is in fact about the argument, rightfully pointing out it is essentially high class spam.