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Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by nostrademons on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:47PM (#22206163)
Their stance on civil liberties has been pretty consistent. All people are equal, and all are entitled to equal protection of their fundamental civil liberties. Their position on border control follows from this: you are entitled to civil liberties because you are human, not because you are an American citizen. There're some pragmatic limitations on this (there's little that the ACLU can do to protect the civil liberties of people residing in China or Russia, for example), but they've consistently fought to extend civil liberties to everyone - even, for example, American citizens of Iraqi descent residing in Iraq.

It's both of the major parties that have inconsistent stances on this, which can largely be summed up as "civil liberties for me, but not for thee". That's why the ACLU tends to get flack from both sides of the aisle. Both parties try to define one group of people as their "tribe" and maximize their own liberties, while defining another group as an outgroup and trying to deny their liberties. And it works: there's nothing quite so motivating as an outgroup. But I'm glad that there are organizations that take a principled, logical stance toward freedom without discriminating against who gets that freedom.

Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by rayiner on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:56PM (#22206262)
> Their stance on civil liberties has been pretty consistent.

Except the right to bear arms, of course.

Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by torkins on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:01PM (#22206325)
It's the interpretation of the second amendment by SCOTUS that has been inconsistent over time, not the ACLU's position. Collective/militia rights is a widespread interpretation of the second amendment (which the ACLU holds). Interpreting "right to bear arms" as unrestrained individual gun ownership is not the default position just because modern NRA advocacy says it is.
Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by tptacek on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:18PM (#22206486)
This isn't responsive to Rayiner's point. "Why" the ACLU doesn't expansively support the right to bear arms the way they do speech and freedom from search is interesting, but doesn't rebut Rayiner's point "that" they don't.
Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by CharlesW on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:02PM (#22206335)
You're painting their position with a brush the size of a small planet. Here's their actual position, which is for Constitutionally-consistent gun regulations and against proposed gun regulations which raise civil liberties concerns: https://www.aclu.org/blog/civil-liberties/mobilization/aclus...
Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by likpok on Friday January 31, 2020 @06:27PM (#22207048)
This article approaches gun regulation from the standpoint that the 2nd amendment mostly doesn't exist. It's arguing that the regulations should be consistent with the equal-protection clause. That's basically in-line with what rayiner said: the ACLU doesn't care about the 2nd amendment, and only defends gun issues when they touch other constitutional issues.
Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by positivejam on Friday January 31, 2020 @06:05PM (#22206887)
Has the ACLU's stance on the right to bear arms has been inconsistent, as in, changed quite a bit over time? Or they just haven't had much of a stance to speak of? Honest question.
Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by likpok on Friday January 31, 2020 @06:31PM (#22207083)
In 1991, they believed it was an individual right. Now they believe it's a collective right. I don't know of any major cases the ACLU brought on behalf of gun owners (but probably wouldn't know if they had).

https://reason.com/2019/04/12/the-aclu-defends-the-rights-of... has some discussion of this.

Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by FireBeyond on Friday January 31, 2020 @07:26PM (#22207447)
I can't speak to that - but they also haven't felt as much of a need to devote resources to it as they feel, accurately, I believe, that the NRA has enough resources and a loud enough voice on that topic.
Re:ACLU: ICE and CBP Are Secretly Tracking Us Using Stingray... by Karunamon on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:55PM (#22206259)
Those liberties are restricted, justly, when one violates a law. Setting aside the perfectly reasonable outrage at mass surveillance techniques, the ACLU seems to have a problem with any border enforcement, including the kind of temporary detainment that is a requirement for any kind of justice system to function!

Civil liberties do not include the right to enter another sovereign country without that country's consent, so yes, the liberty of free movement into and within a country is something that citizens and legal residents have that other people do not.

This is not a simple problem that lends itself well to the kind of pithy soundbites I complained about in the OP.