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Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by openasocket on Friday January 31, 2020 @12:36PM (#22203606)
I don't support the behavior alleged in this article, but I do genuinely believe Wikileaks was acting very unethically. It's one thing to release classified documents describing corruption or illegal/immoral behavior by the government, it's another to blindly release any classified documents you can get your hands on without any concern for others. In one dump of classified documents on the War in Afghanistan, it included the identities of many civilians assisting the US military. Those named have since been targeted by the Taliban. And this is a consistent pattern. Their leaks routinely include social security numbers, credit card numbers, private medical information, the list goes on. That information is not in the public interest and has caused great harm to innocent people. And I'm hardly alone in saying this. Edward Snowden, the Sunlight Foundation, and Amnesty International have criticized this practice.

EDIT: Quoting from Assange's indictment:

"After agreeing to receive classified documents from Manning and aiding, abetting, and causing Manning to provide classified documents, the superseding indictment charges that Assange then published on WikiLeaks classified documents that contained the unredacted names of human sources who provided information to United States forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and to U.S. State Department diplomats around the world. These human sources included local Afghans and Iraqis, journalists, religious leaders, human rights advocates, and political dissidents from repressive regimes. According to the superseding indictment, Assange’s actions risked serious harm to United States national security to the benefit of our adversaries and put the unredacted named human sources at a grave and imminent risk of serious physical harm and/or arbitrary detention."

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by chrismeller on Friday January 31, 2020 @01:47PM (#22204302)
Sooo... the guys he was leaking evidence of war crimes against claim that he endangered people he leaked information about.

While that may actually be true, I’m curious why you would trust that statement from the US Government (the “indictment”) while ignoring the other (that’s “classified”).

If you trust that there’s doubt as to why things were classified and that they may have been hiding things, why would you also trust that they claim people have been endangered? Again, not saying it’s not true, just that blindly taking the word of US prosecutors seems short sighted.

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by darawk on Friday January 31, 2020 @02:40PM (#22204846)
Nobody is trusting anything. It should be obvious that these leaks endangered these people. All you have to do is look at them to see that. If you publish the names of civillian collaborators with the US, they're going to get targeted. You don't need classified intel to know that.
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by 4bpp on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:45PM (#22205508)
I made this point in a more lengthy fashion in a parallel comment [0], but it seems really odd to me you would ignore the circumstance that the lion's share of the work towards endangering those civilians was done by the US, by recruiting them to be collaborators in a hostile country. Why does the US government have more moral license to endanger Afghan civilians than Assange/Wikileaks?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22205463

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by darawk on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:43PM (#22206693)
The US government decision to invade Afghanistan involved a number of other factors. Whether or not you agree with that calculation is subjective. The difference between that and what Assange did is that Wikileaks could have taken the time to redact these names, as they were immaterial to the point they were trying to make.

If this was a tradeoff between "not expose abuses by the US government" and "name these civillians", I think your point would be reasonable. But there was no tradeoff. Wikileaks was just lazy about it.

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by missosoup on Friday January 31, 2020 @06:16PM (#22206965)
Wikileaks asked the DoD to help redact the documents. DoD refused and later put out a statement claiming that Assange lied about asking for help. This statement was shown to be false.

Due to the limited time window for release, the choice was either to release as-is or to never release at all.

Calling Wikileaks lazy is myopic. They didn't have the resources to redact the documents in the time window they had to work with, and they asked for help. The US govt knew exactly what would happen if they refused to help. It was a calculated move to maximise collateral damage and help drive the narrative that you now subscribe to. They didn't give a single fuck about the collateral damage, their response was focused on discrediting and prosecuting the source of the leak to send a message to anyone else considering exposing their wrongdoings.

The US govt acted like a bunch of insidious cartoon villains, and gaslighting its citizens about how this situation played out.

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by rendall on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:01PM (#22205050)
"It should be obvious that these leaks endangered these people. All you have to do is look at them to see that."

Which, specifically? I have heard that claim before. Would you mind linking to the specific leaks that endangered civilians? WikiLeaks is online and searchable, but I have not seen them.

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by kingludite on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:11PM (#22205131)
At this stage it is not actually important if anyone could be hurt or dies. The topic is the global state of human rights and persecution of criminals in important positions. Hundreds of millions gave their lives for our freedoms many of which didn't sign up for it. We want future generations to enjoy those freedoms. Trading them for some claims of endangerment is not a good deal.
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by wiz21c on Friday January 31, 2020 @02:58PM (#22205019)
>> civillian collaborators with the US

Maybe those were helping (unknowingly) US troops to kill other people...

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by openasocket on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:28PM (#22205324)
Are you claiming that naming Afghan civilians working with the US military wouldn't endanger them, or that Wikileaks didn't name said civilians? I'd point you to my other reply where I cite a number of human rights organizations saying this is endangering civilians, and also cite that the Taliban has publicly stated they are targeting the individuals named in the leaks.
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by 4bpp on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:42PM (#22205463)
Invading Afghanistan endangered Afghan civilians, and recruiting Afghan civilians to work for the US while Afghanistan was not and was not going to be wrestled from the control of the Taliban endangered them. Why do you not consider this a moral case for Assange to damage the US (by leaking information), but consider Assange's leaks endangering Afghan civilians (by modulating the risk inherent in the US actions described above!) to be a moral case for the US to damage Assange (by subjecting him to legal harassment out of line with established norms of civilised society)?

The situation to me seems to be only a few steps removed from something along of the lines of $government outright taking some civilian hostages and threatening to execute one of them every time someone reports on any of $government's wrongdoings. In a scenario like that, would you also say that the act of reporting is immoral because it endangers civilians - and hence cheer on $government's long hand punishing the reporter?

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by russler23 on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:21PM (#22205891)
Assange is an anarchist. Asking him to please leave some of the system up while he’s tearing other parts of it down is fundamentally misunderstanding the man. Surprisingly, despite the risks he took with other people’s lives, he’s done more good than harm. I hope you were more outraged by the war crimes committed by both the US and the Taliban than you are at Assange’s informative negligence.
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by willis936 on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:24PM (#22206543)
If we're judging individuals and their actions, it's hard to say that any one person in the system has acted nearly as malicious as Assange. So yes, it is reasonable to hold him accountable for his decision to endanger citizens of a country that is neck deep in shit.
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by jessaustin on Friday January 31, 2020 @01:57PM (#22204430)
...many civilians assisting the US military. Those named have since been targeted by the Taliban.

Can you point us to any evidence of this, other than e.g. a general or politician making vague claims with no specifics?

I'm not saying that no one in the various nations that USA has invaded haven't been hurt by those invasions, but can any of that be directly attributed to leaks?

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by openasocket on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:25PM (#22205292)
That claim wasn't made by some random politician. It was made by Amnesty International, Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict, Open Society Institute, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, and the International Crisis Group. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-wa... . Reporters without Borders also mentioned it: https://rsf.org/en/news/open-letter-wikileaks-founder-julian...

There's also a statement from the spokesman for the Taliban saying they will go after the people named: https://www.newsweek.com/taliban-says-it-will-target-names-e...

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by jessaustin on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:54PM (#22206242)
From the first link:

...WikiLeaks had tried to comply with a private White House request to redact the names of informants before publication, but the US authorities had refused to assist.

Thanks, Obama. Whatever, let's forget about that. The main point is, this material was released a decade ago. If anyone in USA military or intel had learned of a collaborator harmed as a result of the leaks, they would have crowed about it ad nauseam. Instead, crickets. Therefore, this didn't happen. Linking decade-old fear-mongering about "risks" supports the point rather than contradicting it.

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by clSTophEjUdRanu on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:12PM (#22205139)
Evidence of anything would be scarce or nonexistent. It's Afghanistan. Would you want your name out there cooperating with the US when the Taliban is still around? Would you be comfortable with that?
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by jessaustin on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:10PM (#22206407)
There's no way I would ever cooperate with a USA military invasion, no matter how bad the local conditions might be. For at least 60 years, USA military has made every situation they've ever touched worse. I wouldn't imagine that "it's different this time!"

As addressed in sibling thread, it has been a decade. The USA military-industrial complex is highly motivated to manufacture more reasons to silence Assange. If this had happened once in that decade, we would have heard about it.

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by ChickeNES on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:25PM (#22206551)
> For at least 60 years, USA military has made every situation they've ever touched worse.

Kosovo for one would disagree with you

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by jessaustin on Friday January 31, 2020 @05:43PM (#22206691)
OK, you got me. An area that was never occupied by USA ground troops (that was NATO, UN, and OSCE), saw a couple weeks of USA flyovers before the Serbs withdrew, and which later was ruled by heroin and organ traffickers as a result, totally proves that the Afghans would have been wise to welcome the invasion with open arms. Not really!
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by wang_li on Friday January 31, 2020 @08:45PM (#22207942)
> For at least 60 years, USA military has made every situation they've ever touched worse.

This is objectively wrong. Operation unified response in Haiti in 2010, Operation Continuing Promise in the Caribbean and Latin America in 2011. Then Enduring Promise back in Latin America in 2018. Operation Tomodachi after the Japan earthquake in 2011.

Then of course there is the Cold War which lead to the breakup of the Soviet Union and the chance for political self determination of over a dozen countries.

Your convenient 60 year boundary just excludes the Korean War which led to the prosperous and democratic country of South Korea.

Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by jessaustin on Saturday February 01, 2020 @03:49AM (#22209506)
Sure we all like inexpensive and functional durable goods like Hyundai automobiles, but then again that war did kill a fifth of all Koreans. So, maybe not completely a good thing?
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by clSTophEjUdRanu on Monday February 03, 2020 @11:23AM (#22225602)
I didn't ask if you would. I asked that had you, would you want your name out there?
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by tehwebguy on Saturday February 01, 2020 @11:38PM (#22215171)
I’m not comfortable with any part of invading a country, so no.
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by xkcd-sucks on Friday January 31, 2020 @01:41PM (#22204227)
On the other hand, a perfectly anonymized dump is impossible to distinguish from fiction, because there's nothing verifiable to connect it to. In a sense, every person/organization that says they're endangered by the leak confirms its validity and exposes them as a source for further investigation/leaks. And everyone agrees a bit of "collateral damage" is ethically defensible in service of the greater good.
Re:UN special rapporteur on torture on his investigation int... by simion314 on Friday January 31, 2020 @01:04PM (#22203841)
>I don't support the behavior alleged in this article, but I do genuinely believe Wikileaks was acting very unethically.

The issue is that laws not ethics matter now. So IMO the rape accusations have nothing to do with the ethics of his job.

What is the difference between Russia where journalists are killed and "the west" where journalists are tortured and pushed into suicide.