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Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by sillysaurusx on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:30PM (#22174816)
Hot take: fighting this is a losing battle, because you’re fighting against technology. Can you think of a single technology that society has successfully rejected? It’s pretty hard.

In general, once the tech to do X exists, then X will find a way to exist.

Instead of crucifying Clearview, it might be better to open a dialogue about regulation in this space. But even that has problems; bitcoin was eventually accepted. Yet ICO regulation shows that it’s worth trying.

The point is, this kind of tech can be helpful. Feynman once cited a quote along the lines of “Science is a key that unlocks the door to heaven, but the same key unlocks the door to hell.” It seems relevant here.

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by lozenge on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:58PM (#22175091)
Fun fact: the Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons, 1995 is "the first time since 1868, when the use of exploding bullets was banned, that a weapon of military interest has been banned before its use on the battlefield and before a stream of victims gave visible proof of its tragic effects."
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by nradov on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @06:36PM (#22175395)
Now that high energy lasers are finally becoming practical for military use we will start seeing blinded casualties in major conflicts. Lasers will be used to attack vehicles and if one of the occupants happens to be looking toward the emitter then it's tough luck.
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by catalogia on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @07:44PM (#22175938)
The ban on laser blinding weapons was precipitated by the 1995 public announcement of a practical laser blinding weapon created by the Chinese arms manufacturer Norinco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZM-87

They have supposedly already been used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Juan_de_Fuca_laser_i...

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by bashinator on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @08:10PM (#22176112)
It's interesting that there's been no similar objection to directional phase-array audio weapons that are easily capable of deafening people.
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by reaperducer on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#22174860)
Can you think of a single technology that society has successfully rejected?

Eugenics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by sillysaurusx on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:40PM (#22174892)
Heh. That was the first thing that popped to mind too. But it might be best to avoid the topic.

Still, genetic engineering is marching ever-closer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhjPd4uNFY

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by pfdietz on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @06:20PM (#22175273)
Genetic screening, and abortion of defective fetuses, is a thriving industry.
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by henryfjordan on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @06:50PM (#22175508)
Is Eugenics a technology or just the targeted application thereof? We openly practice breeding programs with plants and animals, we just don't like doing it to humans.
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by chii on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @10:23PM (#22177019)
It's still there, but only under the guise of various social "norms", like always marry up or across.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assortative_mating and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogamy_(sociology)

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by civilian on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:58PM (#22175088)
I mean, I'm pretty interesting in doing embryo selection on my future children. Eugenics on my own family, if you will. I agree that it's wrong to apply eugenics to others without their consent!
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by craftinator on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @09:21PM (#22176563)
> I agree that it's wrong to apply eugenics to others without their consent!

Others, like people who are not you? I think your future children fall into that category. How will you get their consent?

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by nix0n on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @06:17PM (#22175242)
Crucifying Clearview is HOW we open a dialog about regulation. We have to attack the clearest misuses of the technology instead of the technology in the abstract.
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by desc on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @07:14PM (#22175696)
Indeed.

As always, the public debate (and witchhunt) is focused on the tool, the symptom, the observation, and never the underlying cause.

How are these technologies being abused, and why are the perpetrators allowed to do so?

The surveillance tech already exists, as a component of personalised advertising, because it makes lots of money. It's all any government needs as well. It's flown under the radar wrt. the masses, because most people have absolutely no comprehension of how that kind of thing can work and will ignore anyone talking about it because it's an SEP.

But facial recognition is something which the masses can recognise, if not understand, and therefore react to as a threat.

Personally I think that as long as we haven't solved the first problem then we should avoid piling more possible problems upon it, so roadblocking facial recog tech is not something I would object to. But it does miss the point by rather a large margin.

I don't believe that it'll be as 'awareness-raising' as some people seem to believe either, for the reason implied above: people only care about the comprehensible threat.

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by thom on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @05:43PM (#22174926)
I don't believe this tech is going to be a net good to society, but I do agree that (like the fight against piracy) technology is just going to win here.

I don't have a lot of hope that in the next 50 years we'll be able to prevent the ubiquity of (perhaps 3D printed and untraceable) drones broadcasting HD video to AI curated repositories that track your identity and every word (and bowel movement), if only for the lulz. Your only hope is that you'll be able to afford a home (and work in an office) with all the good countermeasures.

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by ska on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @07:15PM (#22175708)
There are lots of examples. You are right that technology itself is usually value neutral, it's how it has been applied.

But as you suggest the usual answer to this is has always been regulation, which is only effective with teeth.

Nobody can stop you learning how to build a RF transmission devices, or conversely a blocker. But the FAA has very particular ideas (US specific) on what you are allowed to do and not in that space, and if you step too far out of bounds you will be shut down.

The trick is to make the penalties both likely and severe enough to outweigh any benefit you'll see. That will shut down most (ab)uses of the technology. Note regulation can include "you cannot do this as an individual or corporate entity, at all".

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by sillysaurusx on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @07:16PM (#22175720)
What are some examples? (I'm genuinely interested.)
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by ska on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @07:29PM (#22175808)
Other than the FAA one I gave?

There are legal/regulatory limits placed on technologies that can

- create radio signals and/or interference

- reproduce some things (e.g. financial instruments)

- produce certain types of substances (e.g. nuclear, but also chemical)

- are primarily used for producing restricted things (e.g. some arms and armament)

- explode particularly well

- etc.

In some cases this will limit your ability to purchase or create them, in some cases just use. For many things you can do them as a corporation, but only if you subject yourself to scrutiny that you are playing by the rules - i.e. you will be audited.

Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by microdrum on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @06:43PM (#22175440)
There is no way facial rec is going away. Sensationalist outlets like Buzzfeed were, in their day, also against Caller ID. And "databases." Not going to happen. Turning faces into polygons exists/will never unexist.
Re:Clearview AI is struggling to address complaints as its l... by danso on Tuesday January 28, 2020 @06:59PM (#22175576)
How is this sensationalist?