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Re:Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients by mcv on Thursday January 23, 2020 @09:24AM (#22127737)
That is terrible. Why would they refuse treatment for non-terminal cancer?

Sounds like this is more a problem with NHS-specific bureaucracy or NHS funding rather than universal healthcare in general, though.

Re:Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients by philwelch on Thursday January 23, 2020 @12:40PM (#22129691)
Why is it a random and specific coincidence when a system you like fails but an inherent flaw of the system when a system you dislike fails?
Re:Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients by mcv on Friday January 24, 2020 @03:42AM (#22136478)
The difference is that one system is designed to heal people, while the other is designed to profit from it. In a system designed for profit, poor people have little or no access to medical care, and anyone who's not filthy rich is at risk of bankruptcy when they're struck by an expensive medical condition. There's a drive to make healing people as expensive as possible, because that means more profit. In this system, people being unable to afford healthcare is by design. If you want better care, it's the system itself that needs to be replaced, because not taking care of people who cannot afford it, is part of the system.

For a system designed to heal people, the priority should be to heal people, and to make the cost of doing so as low as possible. In this system, when somehow someone is unable to access healthcare they need, it's a failure of this particular implementation of the system, and something that needs to be fixed. The goal of the system is to take care of everybody.

Re:Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients by philwelch on Friday January 24, 2020 @06:08AM (#22137086)
> The difference is that one system is designed to heal people, while the other is designed to profit from it.

The US system isn’t designed at all. Many if not most hospitals and insurers are non-profits, while others are operated by varying levels of government. The resulting patchwork is regulated on multiple levels of government with a variety of differing policy outcomes, but “profit” is not generally one of them.

There are, indeed, for-profit producers of drugs and medical equipment, but this is also true in the UK (GlaxoSmithKline is a British drug company).

> For a system designed to heal people, the priority should be to heal people, and to make the cost of doing so as low as possible. In this system, when somehow someone is unable to access healthcare they need, it's a failure of this particular implementation of the system, and something that needs to be fixed.

Minimizing cost and maximizing access are, in fact, competing goals. If a certain medical treatment is inherently costly to provide, you have to make a specific choice between cost and access. If you are unwilling to budget for competitive pay for health care professionals, you directly affect the availability of care by risking shortages of these professionals. Likewise if you don’t build enough hospitals. This fundamental constraint applies to all health care systems.

I would argue that having the government individually operate each hospital and directly employ each doctor and nurse imposes a heavy administrative burden that is fundamentally impossible to optimize for cost-efficacy. “Failures of implementation” are inevitable and systemic in this model; you may have paved a road with good intentions but that doesn’t mean it leads where you want to go. This is why the NHS is relatively unique even among universal systems and was not broadly replicated even in other European or Commonwealth countries, most of which seem to have better health outcomes.

I’m not saying the US system is perfect, or even better for that matter, but countries like Switzerland and a Singapore have systems that are arguably more privatized than the US while providing better outcomes as well. Even most countries with universal health insurance have some private sector involvement. The problems with the US health care system are far more complicated than the oversimplified conspiracy theories people keep spouting (theories that aren’t far off from those of anti-vaxxers or known frauds like Kevin Trudeau).

Re:Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients by DanBC on Friday January 24, 2020 @05:49PM (#22143142)
> I would argue that having the government individually operate each hospital and directly employ each doctor and nurse imposes a heavy administrative burden

That isn't what happens in the English NHS. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/how-does-nhs-in-eng...

Current inefficiencies in the NHS are caused by lack of investment in buildings and in staff. The NHS has less management than similarly-sized commercial companies, and none of that management is The Government.

Re:Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients by philwelch on Sunday January 26, 2020 @12:21PM (#22153253)
> NHS England is responsible for overseeing the commissioning, the planning and the buying, of NHS services. In practice it also sets quite a lot of NHS strategy and behaves like an NHS headquarters. NHS England commissions some services itself, but passes most of its money onto 200 or so clinical commissioning groups across England, also known as CCGs, which identify local health needs and then plan and buy care for people in their area – people like you and me.

> CCGs buy services from organisations of different shapes and sizes – from NHS trusts that run hospitals and community services, to GPs and others that provide NHS care, including organisations run by charities and the private sector.

Right, so “the government” funds a few public agencies which themselves pass on money to the CCG’s, which also seem to be quasi-autonomous public agencies. The actual care providers are sometimes in the private sector. I’m not sure what distinguishes NHS England or the CCG’s from “the government” other than semantics, but sure.

This is still more administrative overhead than other “universal” systems and does not seem to address the tradeoffs between cost and availability of care. Per Wikipedia:

> A survey of CCGs by the Health Service Journal in April 2015 found that more than a third were planning to save money by restricting access to services, particularly on "procedures of limited effectiveness", podiatry, IVF, and limiting access to procedures based on aspects of a patient's health, for example whether they smoke or are obese, which can affect outcomes.[30] A similar survey by the GP magazine Pulse, in July 2015, found that many CCGs were planning to restrict access to routine care in various ways.[31]

Re:Why Some Doctors Purposely Misdiagnose Patients by DanBC on Sunday January 26, 2020 @02:59PM (#22154346)
> I’m not sure what distinguishes NHS England or the CCG’s from “the government” other than semantics, but sure.

They're not run by a government minister; they're not staffed by civil servants; they're not a government department.

> This is still more administrative overhead than other “universal” systems

It really isn't though. Of course some management exists, it's a budget of over £100bn. But compared to other healthcare systems the NHS is relatively efficient. "The NHS is over-managed" is a persistent myth. See for example chapter 2 of this study: https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/files/2018-06/the-nhs-at-70... (This study does contain a lot of stuff that the NHS is poor at).

>> They found that the NHS spends relatively little on overseeing and planning care, relative to other comparable systems. In 2014, the UK, Portugal and Ireland all devoted 1.5% or less of their government or compulsory health care expenditure to administration. This compares with an average of 3.1%, with 4.1% in France, and 7.9% in the United States.

> "procedures of limited effectiveness"

They're not going to fund things that don't work. Why is that a bad thing?

But, again, I've said that there are problems caused by the choice to de-fund the NHS and that if we had comparable funding as other nations we'd start seeing better outcomes.