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Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Thursday January 23, 2020 @06:26AM (#22126654)
So, any modification of the OS environment would be illegal. Like, say, updating the PATH.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by diffeomorphism on Thursday January 23, 2020 @06:34AM (#22126688)
Sure, if you suddenly overwrite the default version of python you break lots of stuff. Adding onto PATH at the end in contrast does not break anything and is totally fine. See the difference? Similarly for bundling your own libc vs replacing the system one.

Again, simple kindergarten manners: If you think there is any reason people might object to what you want to be doing with/to their stuff, ask first and be prepared to hear "no".

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Thursday January 23, 2020 @06:58AM (#22126824)
What I was saying is that the whole point of an installation is to modify the user's system. It is pretty unlikely that legally it would be possible to have such fine grained differentiation between replacing and appending. And I'd prefer voting with my wallet than to forcing tech companies to involve legal in the development process.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by pjc50 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:12AM (#22126893)
> the whole point of an installation is to modify the user's system

Well, the point is to make an application available to the user; the changes are required by how the OS is designed. It's an accident of history that things like PATH in Windows are world-writable. Things like Metro apps have far less ability to modify the wider system.

The tech company response to this kind of application infighting is likely to be more sandboxing and lockdowns. Everything will move in the direction of an iOS like model where the platform owner can just veto apps and ban developers, as that's the only way to deal with "abuse".

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:27AM (#22127329)
> Everything will move in the direction of an iOS like model where the platform owner can just veto apps and ban developers, as that's the only way to deal with "abuse".

Unless the adults aka the state steps in and orders them to do their jobs instead of bullying each others and the users they are supposed to serve.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by pjc50 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @09:40AM (#22127866)
I'm not sure that nationalising Windows would go down very well with the rest of the industry or indeed the voters.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by _jal on Thursday January 23, 2020 @09:26AM (#22127767)
You you want the "adults" bullying users and developers instead?

You really do not want what you are asking for.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Thursday January 23, 2020 @11:54AM (#22129143)
> You you want the "adults" bullying users and developers instead?

In the same way I want the police to take over the sex trafficking business from the mafia. So no.

> You really do not want what you are asking for.

I believe I know my mind better than you do.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by CamperBob2 on Thursday January 23, 2020 @02:31PM (#22130931)
Of course, the only reason the mafia is involved in the first place is because sex work is illegal in most jurisdictions. So the analogy is worse than a mere leaky abstraction. You're advocating a cure that's worse than the disease, in both cases.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:32AM (#22137504)
Sex trafficking still exists where prostitution is legal. Nice try.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by _jal on Thursday January 23, 2020 @01:12PM (#22130042)
> So no.

Wanted or no, it is the end result you will get.

> I believe I know my mind better than you do.

I believe you do, too. What I am questioning is if the end result is what you think it to be.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:34AM (#22137518)
> Wanted or no, it is the end result you will get.

Surely you can substantiate that claim?

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Thursday January 23, 2020 @09:02AM (#22127558)
Holy hell.. Can you imagine the complexity of such a legislation?
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:35AM (#22137522)
No more complex than other customer protection laws.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by diffeomorphism on Thursday January 23, 2020 @07:45AM (#22127038)
And I think there is a big difference between "system" and "applications". It is not like this is hypothetical magic or unexplored, see any sandboxing ever or Android and iOS, where an app can't even access another app's files without specifically asking for permission.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:53AM (#22127496)
You are talking again in technical terms. Legally this is all irrelevant.
Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:19AM (#22127270)
> What I was saying is that the whole point of an installation is to modify the user's system.

Chrome is not part of the OS.

> It is pretty unlikely that legally it would be possible to have such fine grained differentiation between replacing and appending.

It's not only possible but easy to differentiate between installing software which includes registering it in the appropriate places and changing user settings for anticompetitive reasons. Unlike some corporations' customer support departments, the court system is not only staffed by actual humans with brains, they're even allowed to use them.

> And I'd prefer voting with my wallet than to forcing tech companies to involve legal in the development process.

I prefer solutions that have a chance of working, but to each their own.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Thursday January 23, 2020 @08:51AM (#22127487)
> Chrome is not part of the OS.

Legally irrelevant. If that was relevant, Microsoft wouldn't be attacked for bundling IE.

> It's not only possible but easy...

Please tell us how, then. Preferably in a way unlike the whole GDPR cookie policy fiasco.

> I prefer solutions that have a chance of working

Where you can impose your wishes on other's product choices? This is not a company usurping its monopoly, it's a niche product tweak.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by Skeime on Thursday January 23, 2020 @09:50AM (#22127941)
> > Chrome is not part of the OS.

> Legally irrelevant. If that was relevant, Microsoft wouldn't be attacked for bundling IE.

I would argue that this shows that it is legally relevant. Because it is possible to say that IE is not part of the OS but an application, we can talk about “bundling” products together at all. If IE and Windows were one indecomposable unit, I don’t think the EU would have had a case.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by diffeomorphism on Thursday January 23, 2020 @10:44AM (#22128409)
> If that was relevant, Microsoft wouldn't be attacked for bundling IE.

They never were. But is very successful and impressive PR by MS that you think that this is what the problem was.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:10AM (#22138871)
https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/file/504251/downlo...

Those devious Microsoft PR execs at the Justice Department...

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by diffeomorphism on Friday January 24, 2020 @01:46PM (#22141210)
That is why you need to read and not just skim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

United States v. Microsoft Corporation, 253 F.3d 34 (D.C. Cir. 2001),[1] was a noted American antitrust law case in which the U.S. government accused Microsoft of illegally maintaining its monopoly position in the PC market primarily through the legal and technical restrictions it put on the abilities of PC manufacturers (OEMs) and users to uninstall Internet Explorer and use other programs such as Netscape and Java.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Friday January 24, 2020 @04:01PM (#22142424)
Mate, you are hilarious! From the Wikipedia article you cited:

“ The issue central to the case was whether Microsoft was allowed to bundle its flagship Internet Explorer (IE) web browser software with its Windows operating system.”

So yeah, follow your own advise. Because if you would, you'd find gems like this in the actual court case I cited:

"After trial, the court found Microsoft had violated Section 2 by unlawfully maintaining its monopoly in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems (“OSs”) and by unlawfully attempting to monopolize the market for internet browsers, and that it had violated Section 1 by illegally tying its Windows operating system and its Internet Explorer (“IE”) browser."

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Friday January 24, 2020 @07:42AM (#22137581)
> Legally irrelevant.

What is this, a court of law?

> Please tell us how, then. Preferably in a way unlike the whole GDPR cookie policy fiasco.

You don't get to blame the GDPR for those pointless pop-ups webmasters choose to display that are not even remotely compliant.

> Where you can impose your wishes on other's product choices? This is not a company usurping its monopoly, it's a niche product tweak.

Microsoft is the one which tries to impose its choices on others. In any case it wouldn't be me but us, we live in a democracy.

MS Office and Google search aren't niche products either.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Friday January 24, 2020 @10:08AM (#22138857)
> What is this, a court of law?

You're talking about legislature (i.e. state stepping in). What did you think this was about? Crossfit?

> You don't get to blame the GDPR

Of course I do. Badly designed laws need to be blamed.

> MS Office and Google search aren't niche products either.

But ProPlus is. Either you are deliberately conflating the issue or you don't know what you are talking about.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Friday January 24, 2020 @11:07AM (#22139427)
> You're talking about legislature (i.e. state stepping in). What did you think this was about? Crossfit?

What the law currently happens to be is irrelevant to the question what it should be.

> Of course I do. Badly designed laws need to be blamed.

Please tell me how those pop-ups reflect a design flaw in the GDPR.

> But ProPlus is.

It's a version of Office.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by jevgeni on Friday January 24, 2020 @04:23PM (#22142602)
> What the law currently happens to be is irrelevant to the question what it should be.

I advise you to take a civics course. This is literally not true.

> Please tell me how those pop-ups reflect a design flaw in the GDPR.

In short: GDPR failed to correct the incentives and lead just to more boilerplate disclaimers. Some of GDPR is good, but this part definitely isn't.

> It's a version of Office.

Yeah... That's the definition of a niche product. Because, it's targeted at niche audience.

Honestly, I'm not interested of arguing with you anymore. When people start throwing platitudes against facts, that's the time I lose interest.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by anoncake on Saturday January 25, 2020 @08:49AM (#22146217)
> I advise you to take a civics course. This is literally not true.

It would be easier if you explained to me how this possibly can be not true.

> In short: GDPR failed to correct the incentives and lead just to more boilerplate disclaimers. Some of GDPR is good, but this part definitely isn't.

The incentives people think the GDPR sets are obviously broken but what about the ones it actually does set as written? The law is fine, the enforcement is disappointing so far.

> Yeah... That's the definition of a niche product. Because, it's targeted at niche audience.

If Office is targeted at a niche audience then everything is a niche audience.

Re:Microsoft to force Chrome default search to Bing via Offi... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday January 23, 2020 @09:37AM (#22127843)
Yes, absolutely. Such things should require explicit consent from the user and be implemented in such a way that the application can't even tell if permission was granted or not. For a long time now applications have proven that they cannot be trusted to act in the user's best interest. If we care at all about personal computing, then applications should be isolated and sandboxed by default with any connection to the rest of the system under the explicit control of the user.

I'm sure someone will say you should only install applications you trust, but where does that trust come from? How can I judge the trustworthiness of an application if I can't use it first? Must I trust some third party like a community of repo maintainers --not to mention corporate run repos-- and pretend that they all must have my best interest at heart and never make mistakes? Am I required to believe in the fantasy that once trustworthy software will always be so?