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Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @11:53AM (#22100108)
Yeah...I mean I’ve made $25K in the stock market already this year for doing absolutely nothing
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by foogazi on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:27PM (#22100410)
This is a bit disingenuous.

If you haven’t sold you have not made anything - it’s just that the market values the asset you hold higher than what you paid for it.

If you did sell you made 25k for storing your previous savings in the stock market

It is a choice you made about what to do with your money

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:31PM (#22100434)
Would you say the same to someone who has been holding Amazon stock for 10 years? Or Apple? Or has a home in SF?

Unrealized gains are gains. Of course it can go down but no one should subtract that number from their wealth. Appreciating assets are what make most people wealthy.

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by foogazi on Monday January 20, 2020 @07:38PM (#22103289)
It can go up or down - OP is taking a risk and being rewarded for it
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by skookum on Monday January 20, 2020 @01:20PM (#22100877)
Why is it disingenuous?

What if the OP sold and immediately bought another asset that had similarly appreciated? What if they sold, changed their mind, and immediately re-bought the same asset? In both these cases the "made" 25K (or somewhat less if we factor in cap gains tax) is in a similarly precarious position to the just-keep-holding case.

Is it the case that to have "made money" you need to take that money permanently out of play? Does that in turn mean then when you invest money that money shouldn't count toward your net worth because it might lose value in the future?

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by sdinsn on Monday January 20, 2020 @02:52PM (#22101618)
Unrealized gains are still wealth.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by christiansakai on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:22PM (#22100377)
Market goes up and down. As long as that money is not realized, it is still just a number in a computer. When we need the money, it better be there and not actually less than what we put there.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by hello_moto on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:38PM (#22100508)
Maybe we should come up with an actual number:

Starting Point: $10k

Annual Contrib: $1k (that's $1k per year)

Years to Grow: 20 years (that's $20k contribution)

Annual Rate: 5% (ETF bloggers says 10%, but let's half that)

Total Value: $61,252.23

Money you put in: $30k ($10k + $20k for 20 years)

Money you get: $31,252.23

So let's say at the 21st year, the stock crashed. The crash needs to be more than 50% in order for you to lose your capital money.

First, I believe you can tell your financial institution if you want to cash out.

Second, by the time you retire, usually you don't put your money in high-risk investment but instead if something more "reliable" so the chance you get hit with 50% lost should be at minimum.

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by pmoriarty on Monday January 20, 2020 @01:57PM (#22101207)
"by the time you retire, usually you don't put your money in high-risk investment but instead if something more "reliable" so the chance you get hit with 50% lost should be at minimum."

If you retire. You might die before retirement age. Also, by the time you retire you might be too infirm or sick to even enjoy your retirement. Many people also have such a crappy work/life balance that they don't know what to do with themselves when they retire, so they're miserable even when they retire.

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by hello_moto on Monday January 20, 2020 @04:48PM (#22102351)
Would you prefer to retire without investment or retire with investment?

I don't understand the negative use-cases from your statements.

"if you retire"

"if you didn't die"

"you maybe too sick"

Are you suggesting not to invest at all because "YOLO, we'll die, or sick-and-die anyway".

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by pmoriarty on Monday January 20, 2020 @07:59PM (#22103403)
I guess what I'm saying is that there's something to be said for sometimes living for the present instead of always living for the future. Balance in all things.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by hello_moto on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @09:41AM (#22107271)
That's the thing: you can both live in the present and prepare for the future. It's all about budgeting.

Saving money does not mean you have to live below poverty line. It means you have to "live within your means" => "balance in all things". The hardest thing in life is to deal with "change", in this case, "changing your lifestyle". Those who are not used to "live within their means" will absolutely struggle to do so down the line.

Nobody suggest anyone to put away as much money as possible and live miserably. If we go back to the simplify calculation above given the situation where one cannot afford to travel abroad _right now_, investment can help them with that problem! Nobody say not to touch your investment before you retire. You can withdraw occasionally for reasonable splurge.

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:25PM (#22100399)
Markets have gone up...10 years and running now. Last 13 of 15 weeks have ended green. This is unprecedented. We haven’t had a -1% day in months.

Do I think it will go down sometime? Yes of course. And I’ve hedged accordingly. But people who are scared to invest are missing a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by Gibbon1 on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:24PM (#22100387)
Friend of mine made $100k/year from 2015 to 2020 by buying and selling a house. The US's obsession with passive income is insane and is going to utterly fuck us.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:32PM (#22100449)
Why is that a bad thing?
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by Ididntdothis on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:44PM (#22100562)
Because we can’t keep driving up asset prices and sell houses to each other. Doing something should be rewarded and not just having something.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by selectstatement on Monday January 20, 2020 @01:29PM (#22100970)
Apparently we can.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:50PM (#22100607)
That isn’t how capitalism works
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by Gibbon1 on Monday January 20, 2020 @01:32PM (#22101009)
Why? Seriously why can't capitalism work like that?
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @01:49PM (#22101151)
The capital in capitalism literally refers to using money to make money.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by Gibbon1 on Monday January 20, 2020 @02:33PM (#22101466)
You can't make money while destroying things? I think you certainly can. Both in particular and in aggregate.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by stevewodil on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:06PM (#22100223)
You've made (withdrawn/dividends) 25k, or your portfolio is currently up 25k?
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:15PM (#22100300)
It’s a mix of everything.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by newnewpdro on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:32PM (#22100450)
Unless you realized those gains this is fiction.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by sdinsn on Monday January 20, 2020 @02:53PM (#22101627)
Unrealized gains are the basis for our whole financial system.
Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by tempsy on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:33PM (#22100459)
holds Apple stock for 15 years

“Those gains are fiction”

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 on Monday January 20, 2020 @11:57AM (#22100155)
It requires self denial, I’m surprised so many people gloss over this.

After all, you could have taken that $25k out and spent it on yourself or on a vacation.

A lot of people’s nest eggs are much smaller than they could have been because they choose to do something else with their money, either out of necessity of pleasure.

Re:People no longer believe working hard will lead to a bett... by bhandziuk on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:29PM (#22100422)
I don't get your point?