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Re:How is search so bad? A case study by zackees on Sunday January 19, 2020 @05:39PM (#22094642)
The real reason why search is so bad is that Google is downranking the internet.

I should know - I blew the whistle on the whole censorship regime and walked 950 pages to the DOJ and media outlets.

--> zachvorhies.com <--

What did I disclose? That Google was using a project called "Machine Learning Faireness" to rerank the entire internet.

Part of this beast has to do with a secret Page Rank score that Google's army of workers assign to many of the web pages on the internet.

If wikipedia contains cherry picked slander against a person, topic or website then the raters are instructed to provide a low page rank score. This isn't some conspiracy but something openly admitted by Google itself:

https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/guidelines.raterh...

See section 3.2 for the "Expertise, Authoritativeness and Trustworthiness" score.

Despite the fact that I've had around 50 interviews and countless articles written about my disclosure, my website zachvorhies.com doesn't show up on Google's search index, even when using the exact url as a query! Yet bing and duckduckgo return my URL just fine.

Don't listen to the people who say that's its some emergent behavior from bad SEO. This deliberate sabotage of Google's own search engine in order to achieve the political agenda of the controllers. The stock holders of Google should band together in a class action lawsuit and sue the C-Level executives of negligence.

If you want your internet search to be better then stop using Google search. Other search engines don't have this problem: I'm looking at qwant, swisscows, duckduckgo, bing and others.

~Z~

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by preommr on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:48PM (#22095012)
Google's search rankings are based on opinions held by other credible sources. This isn't really blowing the whistle when, as you admitted, Google admits this openly.

And maybe your site doesn't get ranked well because it's directly tied to project veritas. I don't like being too political, especially on hn and on an account tied to my real identity, but project veritas and it's associates exhibit appalling behavior in duplicity and misdirection. I would hope that trash like this does get pushed to the bottom.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by leereeves on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:59PM (#22095076)
In a political context, "credible" is often a synonym for "agrees with me". Anyone ranking "page quality" should be conscious of and try to avoid that, and yet the word "bias" doesn't even appear in the linked guidelines for Search Quality Raters.

Of course Google's own bias (and involvement in particular political campaigns) is well known, and opposed to Project Veritas, so it's quite possible that you are right and Google is downranking PV.

Would that be good? Well, that's an opinion that depends mostly on the bias of the commentator.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by JamesBarney on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:47PM (#22095285)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Veritas

I doubt this affected search rankings but Project Veritas does have a ton of credibility issues.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by qbaqbaqba on Monday January 20, 2020 @09:07AM (#22098857)
And so does wikipedia.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by zackees on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @05:43PM (#22112547)
Project Veritas does not have credibility issues. They have never issued a single retraction.

If this surprises you, then welcome to the systematic bias of wikipedia.

[dead]
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by skosch on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:15PM (#22095425)
Two wrongs don't make a right – but more importantly, Project Veritas deliberately uses lies and deception to obtain its footage, which it then edits to remove context. That crosses a line far beyond run-of-the-mill reporting bias.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by leereeves on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:19PM (#22095451)
The point of that story isn't "two wrongs make a right", but that the left wing still accepts CNN just as the right wing still accepts PV.

"Gotchas" and "gaffes" are taken out of context all the time. And when reporters lie to go undercover and obtain a story, they're usually hailed as heroes.

These objections are only used to "discredit" opposing viewpoints. People don't object when sources they agree with use the same tactics.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by true_religion on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:06PM (#22095667)
Why the assumption of left or right, when at least in the US most people identify as independents?

And to be even more fair, you aren’t talking about “people” here but the OP who can clearly state their own personal preferences, without the need for you to construct a theory of hidden bias.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by dragonwriter on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:59PM (#22095918)
> Why the assumption of left or right, when at least in the US most people identify as independents?

Most people don’t identify as independents, and, anyhow, studies of voting behavior show that most independents have a clear party leaning between the two major parties and are just as consistently attached to the party they lean toward as people who identify with the party.

So not only is it the case that most people don't identify as independents, most of those who do aren't distinguishable from self-identified partisans when it comes to voting behavior.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by arminiusreturns on Sunday January 19, 2020 @10:41PM (#22096133)
On the contrary, according to relatively recent Pew numbers from 2018 [1], around ~38% of American's identify as independents, with ~%31 democrat and ~%26 republican. To be fair many of them lean towards one party or another (your last point acknowledged), but independents are much more important in politics than they are usually given credit for.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/15/facts-about...

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by dragonwriter on Sunday January 19, 2020 @11:56PM (#22096422)
> On the contrary, according to relatively recent Pew numbers from 2018 [1], around ~38% of American's identify as independents, with ~%31 democrat and ~%26 republican.

That's not “on the contrary”; 38% < 50%; most Americans don't identify as independents.

Heck, even 43% (the number that don't identify as either Republicans or Democrats) is less than 50%; most Americans specifically identify as either Democrats or Republicans.

> but independents are much more important in politics than they are usually given credit for.

On the contrary, independents are given outsize importance by the major media, because they are treated as just as large of a group as they actually are, but are treated as if their voting behavior was much more different from that of self-identified partisans than it actually is.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by arminiusreturns on Monday January 20, 2020 @02:14AM (#22096971)
You got me in a technically correct way, which is as they say, the best kind of correct. I think the keyword "majority" being defined as more than %50 being the crux, so I should have worded my statement better with a "most", "plurality" or "relative majority" instead.

> most Americans specifically identify as either Democrats or Republicans

Now you just did the same thing I did but in reverse! See my comments about more specific words for plurality such as "most".

> independents are given outsize importance by the major media

I don't think independents are given much importance at all by the major media, but I have increasingly disconnected from that circus too so I might not be a good judge of it.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by dragonwriter on Monday January 20, 2020 @06:01AM (#22097991)
> Now you just did the same thing I did but in reverse!

No, I didn't.

> See my comments about more specific words for plurality such as "most".

“Most” (as an adjective applied to a group) is for a majority, not a plurality, but that's okay, because 57% is an absolute majority, anyway, which is why my reference, which did use “most” for a majority, was not what you did.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by arminiusreturns on Monday January 20, 2020 @11:15AM (#22099822)
I disagree with your definition of most.

https://electowiki.org/wiki/Majority

Maybe not the best source, but quite a few sites returned similar verbiage about most usually but not always referring to a plurality. I'm open to correction on this point, and am genuinely curious about this meta argument now. Having a hard time finding a statistical dictionary that references the words we are using here (majority, most, etc).

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by sertaco on Monday January 20, 2020 @02:41PM (#22101521)
Can I even reply beyond this point?
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by arminiusreturns on Monday January 20, 2020 @06:47PM (#22103043)
Are you asking rhetorically in a facetious way or a real question? If the former am I missing something (like maybe I said something dumb, it's happened before)?
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by wozniacki on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:34PM (#22095802)

  Why the assumption of left or right, when at least
  in the US most people identify as independents?
Do you wish to cite a source for this or do you wish to gaslight here?

  Voters declaring themselves as independent of a major
  political party rose nationally by 6 percentage points
  to 28 percent of the U.S. electorate between 2000 and 
  last year’s congressional midterm contest in states 
  with party registration, analyst Rhodes Cook wrote 
  in Sabato’s Crystal Ball political newsletter at the
  University of Virginia Center for Politics.

  But as few as 19 percent of Americans identifying as
  independent truly have no leaning to a party, according
  to the Pew Research Center.[1]
[1]

'Difference-maker' independent voters in U.S. presidential election crosshairs

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-deciders-ind...

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by true_religion on Monday January 20, 2020 @03:27AM (#22097310)
The pew polling numbers posted higher in the thread are a fine source.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/15/facts-about...

The gist of it is that for any given party, more people are not members of it (e.g. 70%+ of Americans are not Democrats) so you are not safe in guessing someone political affiliations. Stats wise, you will likely be wrong.

Secondarily, saying that someone who leans to a party is basically in that party is wrong.

For example, I am an independent. I lean republican on the local level, but in the Federal elections I lean Democrat. If you polled me, I would say I lean republican since that’s usually what’s on my mind

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by leereeves on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:23PM (#22095749)
No, I'm not only talking about the OP here.

Look up the story I'm talking about and you'll see that it was ignored by left-wing sources:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cnn+edited+video+of+sister&t=ffab&...

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cnn%20edited%20video%2...

The entire media establishment ignores these tactics when used by other organizations they agree with.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by lostcolony on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:50PM (#22095587)
I'm sorry, whataboutism doesn't actually lend credence.

You're free to select the occasional time when a news agency gets it wrong (and apologizes and issues a correction)...but to try and compare it to an intentionally biased organization that always, intentionally gets it wrong (by willfully setting up people, then editing their responses, to paint things in a particular light), and never backs down, never apologizes, well...at best, your bias is showing.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by leereeves on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:18PM (#22095728)
Actually I'm not a fan of PV. Gotcha journalism doesn't appeal to me. But I see that low quality "journalism" every day, so I don't see PV as particularly noteworthy. Certainly not worth altering search results for.

And I'd say you are mistaken when you call changing "take that [violence] to the suburbs" into "a call for peace" merely getting it wrong. What CNN did could hardly be anything other than intentional deception from an organization with a strong left-wing bias[1].

1: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cnn/

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by joshuamorton on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:39PM (#22095829)
PV isn't "gotcha journalism". They've repeatedly committed felonies and completely fabricated things (ex. when they tried to trick WaPo into pushing a fake #metoo story about Roy Moore) in attempts to create their content.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by leereeves on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:46PM (#22095852)
> They've repeatedly committed felonies

That's quite a claim. If that's true, why aren't they in jail?

I'm sure they have many powerful enemies who would love to see them convicted of these multiple felonies.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by joshuamorton on Sunday January 19, 2020 @11:04PM (#22096201)
https://web.archive.org/web/20100531174024/http://neworleans...

O'Keefe plead out to a misdemeanor and served probation + a fine. But the crime he committed was a felony.

> In January 2012, O'Keefe released a video of associates obtaining a number of ballots for the New Hampshire Primary by using the names of recently deceased voters.

That's probably a felony in most parts of the US, although O'Keefe claims it wasn't since he didn't actually vote.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by wavepruner on Sunday January 19, 2020 @10:45PM (#22096143)
Michael Moore films and edits his documentaries in a similar fashion.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by jjeaff on Monday January 20, 2020 @11:32AM (#22099942)
I agree. I watched one of his newer docs and anytime I heard something that just seemed too crazy to be true, I researched it. And in all cases, I found that important context was missing and in some cases, the evidence for the point being made was almost completely fabricated.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by wwweston on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:13PM (#22095416)
> In a political context, "credible" is often a synonym for "agrees with me".

Not among credible sources.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by pjc50 on Monday January 20, 2020 @07:45AM (#22098402)
Meta-comment, but this is partly why search and the internet is so bad now; there are a large number of political disinformation campaigns which are getting increasingly blatant, and getting better at finding believers on the internet.

People have a vested interest in destroying the idea that anything can be a non-partisan "fact". Anything can become a smear. Only the most absolutely egregious ones can be reined in by legal action (e.g. Alex Jones libelling the Sandy Hook parents).

(This is not just internet, of course; the British press mendacity towards the Royal family is playing out at the moment.)

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by skosch on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:08PM (#22095389)
His website contains gems like "Things got political in June 2017 when Google deleted "covfefe" out of it's arabic translation dictionary in order to make a Trump tweet become nonsense." (No, covfefe doesn't mean anything in Arabic.)

Here is someone who believes that a private company's open attempts to rank websites by quality amounts to "seditious behaviour" deserving of criminal prosecution, and the only people willing to pay attention were Project Veritas. Google has plenty of ethics issues, but this guy's claims are absurd.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by zackees on Monday January 20, 2020 @09:41PM (#22103907)
Not only is it a word, but Google had to delete the word twice.

https://www.zachvorhies.com/covfefe.html

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by creato on Sunday January 19, 2020 @05:57PM (#22094730)
> Despite the fact that I've had around 50 interviews and countless articles written about my disclosure, my website zachvorhies.com doesn't show up on Google's search index, even when using the exact url as a query!

I just tried it, it's just showing results for "zach vorhies" instead, which it thinks you meant. I just tried a few other random "people's names as URL" websites I could find, sometimes it does this, sometimes it doesn't.

Furthermore, the results that do appear are hardly unsympathetic to you. If google is censoring you/your opinions, they're doing a very poor job of it.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by joshuamorton on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:34PM (#22094936)
(I work at Google, but don't work on search)

> If wikipedia contains cherry picked slander against a person, topic or website then the raters are instructed to provide a low page rank score

This sounds like a good thing to me. Sites that contain lies, fabrications, and falsehoods should not be as highly ranked as those which do not.

Why should shareholders sure Google for, as far as I can tell from your argument, trying to provide users with a more useful product?

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by viklove on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:42PM (#22094983)
Why do your colleagues get to decide what is fact and what is fiction? It's our right, as humans, to be able to make that decision on our own after we encounter information. If Wikipedia gains a reputation for libel, then the onus should be on the public to stop trusting them.

Google does not have the moral authority to censor the internet, and it's absolutely wrong for them to attempt this. Information should be free, and you don't have the right to get in the way of that.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by samatman on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:47PM (#22095009)
They don't get to decide any such thing, and in fact, can't. Google (fortunately for all of us) doesn't run the Internet.

They do run a popular search page, and have to decide what to do with a search like "Is the Earth flat?".

Personally, I would prefer they prominently display a "no". Others would disagree, but a search engine is curation by definition, that's what makes it useful.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by pen2l on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:51PM (#22095868)
> Personally, I would prefer they prominently display a "no".

Oh hey! I just tried this, and it does! image: https://i.imgur.com/OqqxSq3.png

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by Aeolun on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:21PM (#22095177)
You would, and fortunately Google agrees with you, but imagine for a moment that they didn’t. 90% if the internet would suddenly see a ’yes’ to that answer, even if 99% of websites disagree.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by Nasrudith on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:57PM (#22095332)
They get to decide because it is their algorithm and the whole point is of a search function is to discriminate inputs to be relevant. They aren't "getting in the way" - they are using it as they please.

What you ask for isn't freedom but control over everyone else - there is nothing stopping you from running your own spiders, search engines, and rankings.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by joshuamorton on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:48PM (#22095013)
Who said anything about censorship? The topic of discussion is what order results are in. Are you saying Google would be more useful if it returned the 100 million results randomly and left you to sort them out?
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by yibg on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:57PM (#22095623)
They get to decide what they display as results. What do you suggest they do instead? Display all of the internet and let the user filter things for themselves?
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by krageon on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @07:03AM (#22106170)
> decide what is fact

The fun thing about facts is that nobody needs to decide whether or not they are true. Perhaps the fact that you can honestly claim to think otherwise means you need to take a step back and examine your reasoning.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by viklove on Thursday January 23, 2020 @04:40PM (#22132465)
> Perhaps the fact that you can honestly claim to think otherwise

This is an example of a "fact" that I'm talking about. It's not a fact, it's an opinion being presented as fact. I guess if you present yourself this way online you have no problem with Google controlling what "facts" are found when you use their search engine.

I guess I'll just have to wait until they start peddling a perspective you disagree with.

> If wikipedia contains cherry picked slander against a person, topic or website

Just remember that this is the comment we're discussing... how does one determine if a statement is slander? Are you telling me Google has teams of investigative journalists following up on each of their search results? Or did someone at Google form an opinion, then decide their opinion is the one that should be presented as "fact" on the most popular search engine in the world?

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by erklik on Sunday January 19, 2020 @05:52PM (#22094709)
> Despite the fact that I've had around 50 interviews and countless articles written about my disclosure, my website zachvorhies.com doesn't show up on Google's search index, even when using the exact url as a query!

I am not sure what is happening but I directly searched for your website : zachvorhies.com on Google (in Australia, if that matters), which returned the website as the first result:

https://i.imgur.com/Z7RTsuE.png

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by DenisM on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:18PM (#22094834)
I'm in the US and Google does not display zachvorhies.com when searching for "zachvorhies.com".
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by CriticalCathed on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:29PM (#22094908)
Does for me. USA.

[0] https://i.imgur.com/S2rPywz.png

Also, is this guy a Q follower or something? The favicon is a Q.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by leereeves on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:43PM (#22095271)
> Also, is this guy a Q follower or something? The favicon is a Q.

Actually the favicon is a headshot.

https://www.zachvorhies.com/favicon.ico

And that's also the icon in the page source:

<link rel=”shortcut icon” href="favicon.ico" type=”image/x-icon” />

I wonder why Google shows a Q.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by dorgo on Monday January 20, 2020 @01:59AM (#22096892)
> I wonder why Google shows a Q

A placeholder used if the algorithm thinks the favicon is not appropriate for some reason.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by erklik on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:57PM (#22095064)
I would think the quotes would make a difference. I was not using quotes, does using quotes in the US still return the website? I would use a VPN and test it out but I am at work right now.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by dodobirdlord on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:06PM (#22095116)
Not using quotes, the first result I get is his twitter account, and the second is a link to a Project Veritas piece about this document leak he describes. Hardly seems like he's getting buried.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by jjeaff on Monday January 20, 2020 @11:38AM (#22099997)
Additionally, if you search "site:zachvorhies.com" you get the site. So it isn't de-indexed. It just isn't ranking well.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by eyegor on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:24PM (#22094875)
[removed, for some reason I thought australia was part of the EU. I'm in the US, also did not see the site link through google]
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by erklik on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:01PM (#22095081)
I think the only time Australia has been part of some sort of European organization or group is when Australia competed in the Eurovision.

Anyhow, I would be interested to know what results you get in the EU.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by c3534l on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:31PM (#22094920)
I'm in the US and I get the same search results. Although if I put in your name, I get your Twitter instead. Not sure why anyone would be searching for a dot com instead of going to it.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by erklik on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:59PM (#22095075)
Same for me in Australia, searching for the name results in the Twitter handle showing up, and then a WikiSpooks websites and so forth. The website isn't even on the first page. I think that's rather concerning, that searching for a person's won't return their website but rather a twitter feed and other websites that have possibly optimized for SEO.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by ch17z on Sunday January 19, 2020 @06:37PM (#22094956)
Australia isn't in the EU.

For what it's worth, I'm in Australia and have the same search results as erklik.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by labombeatomique on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:42PM (#22095267)
Ahh, Zachary Vorhies. I remember your bizarre internal posts literally claiming that Obama's birth certificate was fake. I wasn't surprised at all when you leaked a pile of confidential information to a far right conspiracy theorist group (Project Veritas), and were subsequently fired.

I wouldn't trust a single word that comes out of this guy's mouth.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by cjbillington on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:33PM (#22095232)
FWIW I see your website as the first results when I google it:

https://imgur.com/a/jhx7N9D

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by overgard on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:32PM (#22095224)
For what it's worth, when I search for your site it's the first result. You have to click past the "did you mean", which searches on your name originally, but then it's there.
Re:How is search so bad? A case study by kordlessagain on Monday January 20, 2020 @12:21PM (#22100364)
Highly polarized views, like the one you hold, are a result of a multiplicity of communications between entities on the Internet. Those humans who are more prone to spontaneous visualizations or audio tend to follow patterns which use biased arguments over reasoned arguments. That nets you comments like:

> Don't listen to the people who say

> this beast has to do with a secret Page Rank score that Google's army of workers

Anyone who tells you to not listen to others intends to tell you gossip about why you shouldn't gather data that conflicts their own views. They'll SAY all sorts of things to try to make you "see" it their way. Rational people DO things to prove or disprove a given belief. (Just to note SAYING a bunch of stuff does not equal DOING a bunch of stuff.)

For anyone rational and interested, Google "this video will make you angry" and bump the speed to 75%. The idea is that memes will compete for "compute" space in both people's minds and the space in which they occupy the Internet. Those who get "infected" with a given meme, will go to all sorts of lengths to rationalize why that meme is true, even though the meme the arguing against is just as irrational as their own.

Re:How is search so bad? A case study by Mauricio_ on Tuesday January 21, 2020 @08:23AM (#22106629)
>my website zachvorhies.com doesn't show up on Google's search index, even when using the exact url as a query!

Just searched it and it's literally the first result.