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Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by k_sze on Sunday January 19, 2020 @02:41AM (#22090026)
I wonder if, in the absence of gravity (and thus no issue of buoyancy), a spherical ice ball would form in a stream of slow moving cold water...
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by _nalply on Sunday January 19, 2020 @03:22AM (#22090166)
A disk is rotating its circumference scraping along obstructions such that the growth of ice is steered naturally to a perfect circle. This rotation has a fixed center and axis. A ball however would be scraped towards a cylinder if the same thing happened. To create a ball nature would need the same thing as someone making a wood ball on a belt grinder: vary the rotation axis. However if there are local stability minima, the block of ice would degrade to a preferred rotation configuration. Just thinking aloud here...
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by Someone on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:09AM (#22091495)
On the one hand, pebbles are more like spheres than like cylinders. On the other hand, they’re different in that they can only lose weight, whereas this can also grow.

I guess the end result would depend on the shape of the surrounding cave and on what fraction of its volume the object would eventually fill. I don’t see a tumbling cylinder made of ice inside a hollow sphere filled with icy water remain cylindrical in shape, for example.

On the other hand, inside a relatively tall cylindrical space where the water is below freezing temperature, things could be different (does the production of M&Ms involve tumbling?)

Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by dTal on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:20AM (#22091011)
In zero gravity, liquid water will form a sphere all by itself thanks to surface tension.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by dTal on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:34AM (#22091607)
(Of course, pressure and temperature that sustains liquid water is rarely found in zero gravity, outside of human space stations).
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by jsjohnst on Sunday January 19, 2020 @10:56AM (#22092047)
Human space stations aren’t zero gravity (it’s actually 0.89g). The apparent weightlessness is due to continually falling and never hitting the ground. You don’t need to be in zero gravity to see the water form a sphere shape either, use an eye dropper and a high speed camera and you’d see similar results.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by labombeatomique on Sunday January 19, 2020 @11:33AM (#22092256)
Getting a little off topic here, but general relativity is based on there being no observable difference between inertial motion and free-fall within a gravitational field. The weightlessness from free-fall isn’t just apparent. It’s identical in every way to the weightlessness experienced if you were sitting in one of the universe’s vast voids.

It is of limited meaning to say the gravity in LEO is 0.89G. That’s an Earth-centric statement, and ignores the gravitational contribution of the sun, the galaxy, the local group, and so on.... At best, you can say “a body initially at rest relative to the Earth at altitude 300km experiences an acceleration of 0.89g towards Earth”. Earth itself is in free fall around the Solar System’s barycenter, which in turn is in free-fall around the galaxy’s center of mass, which in turn is in free-fall around etc... etc...

The only gravitational experiment that could be done on the ISS to determine they were orbiting Earth (vs sitting in empty space far from any other bodies) would be to measure gravitational tidal forces.

When you create a drop of water and let it free-fall, it forms a sphere precisely because, from its frame of reference, there is zero gravity.

Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by frank2 on Sunday January 19, 2020 @11:44AM (#22092322)
Getting even more off topic, your comment is completely right except for this:

“a body initially at rest relative to the Earth at altitude 300km experiences an acceleration of 0.89g towards Earth”

which is false in the general-relativistic way of looking at things. An accelerometer initially at rest at 300km would show no acceleration as it starts to fall towards earth. If the atmosphere and the earth could be removed without affecting the shape of spacetime the accelerometer would continue speeding up till it reached where the center of the earth was, then slow down, reaching a speed of zero at a point opposite from where it started, at which point it would repeat the motion in reverse. At no point would it register an acceleration. Nor would an accelerometer in orbit register an acceleration. In the general-relativistic framework, free fall means no acceleration, and the motion of a body in free fall is determined solely by the shape of spacetime. So, at best you can say,

“The shape of spacetime at 300km affects a body's motion the same way an acceleration of 0.89g towards Earth would if spacetime were flat.”

By the way, an accelerometer on the surface of the earth, e.g., the one in your smartphone, registers a constant acceleration of 1.0g in the up direction caused by the normal force of whatever the smartphone is resting on. If someone knocks the phone off a table, the acceleration becomes zero till it hits the floor. (Air resistance can also apply an (upward) acceleration to the smartphone, but is negligible at the speeds reached during a fall of only a few feet by an object as heavy and dense as a smart phone.)

Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by jsjohnst on Sunday January 19, 2020 @12:01PM (#22092419)
> The weightlessness from free-fall isn’t just apparent. It’s identical in every way to the weightlessness experienced if you were sitting in one of the universe’s vast voids.

Also agree with this as well (I again just wasn’t as detailed in my response). I used the word apparent because that’s the established convention from all scientific papers on the topic, but you are 100% correct that it’s identical. The VomitComet flights are a great example, but a lesser known example is going downhill on a roller coaster.

Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by jsjohnst on Sunday January 19, 2020 @11:55AM (#22092387)
> When you create a drop of water and let it free-fall, it forms a sphere precisely because, from its frame of reference, there is zero gravity.

Correct, which is what I said (just not as explicit). I now realize that the “you” could be ambiguous though, the intended “you” is the person performing the experiment doesn’t need to be themselves in zero gravity.

Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by lmilcin on Sunday January 19, 2020 @07:35AM (#22091095)
In absence of gravity there would be no atmosphere, no pressure, no liquid water and especially no flowing liquid water.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by wongarsu on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:30AM (#22091330)
You could imagine a glass donut filled with water, as well as a small rotor to move the water in a circle.

You obviously have to balance the water pressure and temperature to reach slow ice formation, and maybe you need a more interesting container shape than a donut to get interesting results.

Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by lmilcin on Sunday January 19, 2020 @10:37AM (#22091954)
Well, in space water starts to boil away immediately so you would need a gas tight container which don't typically happen in nature in sizes that would allow internal currents to develop.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by wongarsu on Sunday January 19, 2020 @11:20AM (#22092184)
Earth is a (reasonably) gas tight container filled with flowing liquid (lava propelled by convection currents). Europa (the moon) is a reasonably gas-tight container filled with water under an ice sheet.

Of course Earth also has appreciable gravity. The real problem isn't that nature produces no gas tight liquid-filled containers, it's that gravity is the primary mechanism by which things are naturally created in space. Asking for a situation without gravity virtually requires artificial construction.

Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by JoBrad on Sunday January 19, 2020 @09:36AM (#22091619)
I wonder if water ice in space forms large geometric patterns if it is sufficiently dense.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by raverbashing on Sunday January 19, 2020 @03:46AM (#22090246)
I think it wouldn't, unless there was something making it (also) rotate in a different axis than the water flow
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by jayd16 on Sunday January 19, 2020 @03:53AM (#22090266)
Would it be akin to a river stone? Seems possible.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by danwills on Sunday January 19, 2020 @04:09AM (#22090324)
I'd say some similar long-term chipping dynamics would apply (between river-stone and certain types of icy-water flow) and sphere is then just one of many smooth shapes that you can get out of such a system.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by fiblye on Sunday January 19, 2020 @02:44AM (#22090031)
What would drive a stream in the absence of gravity?
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by k_sze on Sunday January 19, 2020 @02:53AM (#22090064)
I assume that can be artificial. Just use a pump.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by jakeinspace on Sunday January 19, 2020 @03:31AM (#22090196)
You can have a directed spray (maybe shot out of a giant fire hose at high pressure and flow), but without gravity, the liquid will disperse over a short distance. I don't see how that's avoidable because of entropy/diffusion. Gravity plus a container (river bed) create a perfect condition for the sorts of liquid flows we're accustomed to: a nearly identical acceleration on all particles, with a bounded displacement.
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by wongarsu on Sunday January 19, 2020 @08:33AM (#22091340)
Just recreate the river bed from a solid material (to prevent dirt from floating away) and add a lid
Re:Maine's giant spinning ice disc looks like it's reforming by riffraff on Sunday January 19, 2020 @03:36AM (#22090214)
if you have a laminar flow, wouldn't some equivalent of surface tension keep it together?