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Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by growlist on Thursday January 16, 2020 @10:17AM (#22065253)
Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this training is being rolled out in many companies across the UK: training based on nonsense. What's deeply insulting - and worrying - is that this should be pushed on educated, intelligent people whose jobs in no small part depend on sniffing out bullshit. Do they think we won't find out the truth? Are the management so clueless/compromised that they actually believe in it? IDK.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by dekhn on Thursday January 16, 2020 @10:28AM (#22065375)
I think the right way to think about this is that psychology has the imprimatur of legitimate science (and some pscyhological research is indeed legitimate), but a lot of it is more about having an idea you like, conducting a few inadequate studies, and publishing them in a domain journal with little critical review and no reproduction.

Then, the folks who teach these courses see these papers (presumably in their undergraduate psych classes?) and end up believing them, becacuse they don't have the necessary scientific analytic/critical skills to evaluate them.

At my employer, the IAT was originally presented as scientific fact (with citations). Over time, the citations changed from "This is great!" to "This work appears to not be scientifically accurate, but we like the idea" to "we will not be using this, unless you want to try it voluntarily".

I think in general most people in society don't really have the ability to differentiate bullshit science from real science. I've actually left my scientific field permanently because I've seen far too enough examples of fraud and incompetence leading to tenure track positions.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by kbenson on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:59AM (#22066371)
> I think in general most people in society don't really have the ability to differentiate bullshit science from real science.

I would say in many ways they can't, at least not without significant time investment every time they need to make that assessment, which is often.

A domain expert is likely able to identify the smell of bullshit in their field extremely quickly. An expert in an adjacent domain will be able to apply some of their expertise, but not all, and sniff out some problems, but other might elude them. That is, a physicist might be able to note some likely problematic parts of statements to do with biology based somewhat on the science, somewhat on the shared methodology, and somewhat on the shared politics they might experience.

A layperson may have very little experience to draw upon for some scientific statement, and even when they have experience with the underlying principles (a general interest in the area, experience in college), that may not be enough to identify problem areas. That's not a problem we can expect the layperson to be responsible for correcting (at least not beyond a healthy skepticism), unless we expect them all to increase their knowledge in every domain that they might make an assessment about (this happens, but it happens at a societal level, and over the span of many years).

Psychology seems to share relatively little with most hard sciences, so it's particularly hard for both laypeople and scientists in other fields to assess without effort (as evidenced here though the multiple stories of people that put in that actual effort).

I'm not sure we'll see improvement on this issue until we have better norms about communicating results. There's a natural inflation that happens when different parties take a finding and explain it, and possibly over-emphasize portions of it. That this happens twice now, once with the PR department associated with the group doing the study and once by the media that goes by what the PR department say, means that the average person gets a very distorted view of what's actually going on.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by hannasanarion on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:06AM (#22065793)
"bias training doesn't eliminate bias" isn't the same thing as "bias doesn't exist".
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by tgv on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:22AM (#22065975)
There's no evidence, and certainly not a plausible model, that supports/explains how reaction times reflect attitudes, and how changes in attitude change reaction times.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by planetzero on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:34AM (#22066100)
It really has nothing to do with science at all. It's just another way to punish the majority for crimes of their ancestors, and to forcibly give power to a minority for simply existing and being a certain race or gender.

Nobody really wants equality. They want supremacy. If they did have equality, they would be treated like everyone else and lose all of their power/special treatment.

They are also tools of our politicians to be a permanent victim class, so the politicians can dole out justice and get votes.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by LanceH on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:51AM (#22066277)
If it were truly scientific we could test out and get certified, then we would only have to attend refresher courses.

I'm serious when I say this is one of the best things about being a contractor or consultant. I can just sign a paper saying that I'm responsible for my behavior.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by raxxorrax on Thursday January 16, 2020 @10:55AM (#22065661)
I would immediately change your workplace if you are able to do so.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by luckylion on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:12AM (#22065854)
Understanding the "scientific basis" of something unscientific is a ritual. It's 2+2=5, a test of your willingness to say things that are obviously false when that's asked of you by those above you.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by bjourne on Thursday January 16, 2020 @10:58AM (#22065695)
Let me ask you something: Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most? Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases?

The point of the training is for companies to absolve themselves of culpability. If you act like a jerk after unconscious bias training you are on your own and the company hopes that it can't be blamed for it.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by dang on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:51AM (#22066268)
Please don't get personal about this. It only provokes others into doing worse, as happened downthread.

Your comment would be just fine with just the second paragraph.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by ncmncm on Thursday January 16, 2020 @12:57PM (#22067041)
The second paragraph is the useful part of the comment. You seem to be reacting to the presence of the word "jerk", entirely ignoring the context.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by dang on Thursday January 16, 2020 @04:45PM (#22069318)
Yes, we agree. The comment would be fine with just the second paragraph.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by thestephen on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:02AM (#22065743)
> Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most?

I can't see the parent making this claim at all; are you sure that your interpretation is in good faith?

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by izzydata on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:39AM (#22066155)
They might be unconsciously biased.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by growlist on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:34AM (#22066099)
I didn't act like a jerk before the training, never mind after :)

I had training called 'cultural awareness' or similar at another company which was basically very similar material, but without the bogus claims that it was rooted in science. It's the latter that I object to - if they are going to enforce behavioural standards just be honest about it, rather than gaslighting people with this arrant nonsense that we're all unknowing bigots through some kind of original sin.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by bjourne on Thursday January 16, 2020 @12:05PM (#22066441)
The bullshit I've had to endure during my career includes "You're one of our best paid engineers, so don't share salary information with your colleagues.", "NDA means you can not take a job at a competing company for six months after your resignation." and "It is important that your back is towards me (the manager) so that I can see your monitor and ensure that you are working at all times."

My point is that even if unconscious bias training is 100% bullshit, it is among the most benign forms of business bullshit I've experienced. Thus, I cannot understand why it is so upsetting to so many.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by growlist on Thursday January 16, 2020 @12:33PM (#22066767)
> it is among the most benign forms of business bullshit I've experienced

I'd argue the opposite actually - it's insidious, because any objection is liable to get you labelled a racist etc., and it's dangerous, because it's effectively telling you that no matter how hard you try you cannot escape being a racist (etc.). The latter is pretty much a textbook definition of gaslighting. I don't want my employer gaslighting me.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by ncmncm on Thursday January 16, 2020 @01:02PM (#22067095)
What you describe is not bullshit, it's just straight up dishonesty and bullying.

Bullshit is distinguished by the speaker not even caring if it's true. Usually it is meant to distract you from what you are not supposed to notice.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by mc32 on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:09AM (#22065819)
Maybe it’s worth asking what other types of “bs” training they received at work.

Maybe it’s one among many or maybe it’s the only one. We don’t know.

That said, most training is about absolving the company of responsibility and putting it on you (security training for example).

On the surface it would seem a good idea to train against harassment at work, but I’d be keen to know if it has an effect on behavior or is it the HR consequences that affect behavior more than the training, for example.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by belorn on Thursday January 16, 2020 @01:21PM (#22067285)
If my job required me to go to a unconscious bias training I would treat it the same is if they forced me to go to church. I am sure companies would like it if everyone would treat each other as kin and share the religious experience, and the actually hours itself would unlikely be the worst experience compared to some of the worst days at the office, but I would still resign if they did it. Call it irrationality. I would simply no longer feel that there were any mutual trust and thus I would not feel safe in continuing working there.

I wonder how many companies can survive long term if employees don't trust their employer and the employer don't trust its employees.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by giggles_giggles on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:12AM (#22065858)
I've seen studies[1][2] which indicate that unconscious racial bias training increases racist attitudes among those who are put through it. If that's true, unconscious bias training might be worse than bullshit, it might be actively harmful and counterproductive to its stated goals.

1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6524213/

2 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/095001701771984...

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by behringer on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:29AM (#22066052)
Ah we're making a generation of Michael Scott Racists.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by Iceland_jack on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:14AM (#22065889)
> Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases?

There is so much to unpack about you here

[dead]
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by ianleeclark on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:19AM (#22065944)
> Yet we’re supposed to believe that we can do even better through different methods, and become even more successful than Apple and Amazon etc.

This is a prime example of why diversity training is needed. People are deeply biased in regards to seeing something successful and then thinking that is the formula to success. It's textbook survivorship bias. Furthermore, it completely misses the material basis for why these companies would have such hiring patterns: there were higher rates of asian and white college-educated men in CS, but, as hiring pools change, so do hiring patterns.

There isn't some innate ability to found software companies in white or asian men.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by freepor on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:38AM (#22066137)
Yes, aspirants pattern-match from success and make tweaks they deem essential to their goals. That‘s the history of human endeavor. Already you see female software engineering hiring growing in priority in the companies that are struggling with hiring.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by KirinDave on Friday January 17, 2020 @10:33AM (#22075450)
Doesn't the existence of women lead teams and initiatives throughout the history of the discipline of computer science suggest that you're deliberately ignoring lots of examples and distorting your filter based on ideological motivations?

It sure looks that way from here.

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by freepor on Friday January 17, 2020 @03:00PM (#22078585)
No, women are certainly capable of great software engineering the same way that men named Steve are capable of being great football players (Steve Young, Steve Largent). But since it’s clearly possible to build great software without many women, and win Super Bowls without Steve’s, If I’m a football coach I’m not going to start a Steve Initiative where I recruit players named Steve.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by KirinDave on Friday January 17, 2020 @05:49PM (#22080405)
... wait. Didn't you just argue against broad pattern matching and then use logic that supported it?

Given your reasoning, why shouldn't someone note the plethora of successful Steve's and say, "Our team needs more Steves! Look at my pattern matching! Steves work!"

Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by koube on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:09AM (#22065826)
I have not been led to the same conclusion (we can balance out workforce racial population) by my unconscious bias training, I have been led to conclusions that I find quite reasonable (watch for these thought patterns that indicate racial bias, such as if the person is X then the person is also Y, also be sure to keep questions to things that are essential to the job role). We might be taking different diversity training.
Re:How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” by rolltiide on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:34AM (#22066103)
Are you guys talking about things like this?

"here comes Karen, let me discriminate by noticing how I might discriminate so to make her more comfortable because I can't perceive my privilege but now I can alter my behavior just around her"

Isn't there some utility in keeping the workplace productive just by being sensitive, as opposed to quantifying if it "reduces discrimination"