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Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by virtuous_signal on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @01:13PM (#22056717)
This smells like a lot of post-hoc rationalization. Collectivism? What about China, which did terribly on this kind of test. Shintoism? Only 3-4% of the population follows that. See https://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-people-are-honest-los... where the graphic in the middle of the page compares countries. It appears that Scandinavian countries fare best followed by Eastern European. I would be happy to hear what people at HN think are the real reasons.

For what it's worth, as a scatterbrained person, I think it would be great living in a country with so much trust that I could expect my lost things not to be stolen.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by jdtang13 on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @02:12PM (#22057394)
I completely agree. Foreign culture analyses like this are always tinged with bias and an incurable desire to find little small-picture justifications. I'm sick and tired of seeing every random quirk of Japanese people being explained as "Shinto this, Buddhism that"; it's such an oversimplification. The interior lives of human beings are built upon perhaps 1,000,000 variables, not just 3 variables.

The writing is in English, published by someone who spent an entire life growing up in the West. And, as you mentioned, this "returning item phenomenon" seems not to be the case in modern China, even in the cities.

If you want to even begin to describe Eastern culture in English, maybe take a look at how hard it was, and still is, to articulate the internal world of the Russians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_soul

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by dtwest on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:07PM (#22057932)
I interpreted this particular article's main point as being:

Don't assume Japanese people are more honest than people in other countries, there are many social and cultural factors at play that influence behavior.

Generalizing a group of people is almost always inaccurate, and often frustrating to read, but I don't think this article is an egregious example of that. This is a fluff piece to get people interested in the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo, don't mistake it for serious cultural analysis.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by simmanian on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:02PM (#22057881)
I was born in one of the "safe" East Asian countries and I think it all comes down to their sense of ownership in the community. Koreans and Japanese have this deeply ingrained idea that the entire history of their country has been built and run by their "people" and they will have a hivemind-allergic reaction to anything they see as undesirable. There's very little crime in public in these countries because people equate a crime that happens in some back alley of a major city to a crime that happens in your cousin's backyard. It's simply abhorrent.

Needless to say, this culture does have its drawbacks, but I think the key takeaway is to increase people's sense of ownership in our communities.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by nwienert on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @01:30PM (#22056924)
Homogenous, nationalistic, small country with high IQ, good education system, high GDP, low levels of immigration, and a culture that emphasizes community.

Oh, and lower levels of inequality, relatively, and a more aligned politics/media system that doesn’t foment distrust.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by NalNezumi on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @08:12PM (#22060727)
>Homogenous, nationalistic, small country with high IQ, good education system, high GDP, low levels of immigration, and a culture that emphasizes community.

I've lived in a Scandinavian country with similar quantities most of my life (well except low levels of immigration) but I can't recall a single time lost property came back, even at a local small town bakery. The experience is very different from my life living in Tokyo.

>Oh, and lower levels of inequality, relatively, and a more aligned politics/media system that doesn’t foment distrust.

Considering my homecountry having almost the lowest level of inequality in the world, and a highly aligned political/media system I don't think this is a factor either.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by matsemann on Thursday January 16, 2020 @02:52AM (#22062459)
> I've lived in a Scandinavian country with similar quantities most of my life but I can't recall a single time lost property came back

But my experience is the opposite: Managed to leave my backpack on a bench in the busiest part of Oslo S when taking the train with too much skis and stuff so I forgot it in the struggle. Anyone could have just snatched it walking by, but instead someone saw it was unattended and delivered it at some lost&found so I got it back a week later.

Also in Oslo, I forgot my laptop at the table on an outside cafe. When I came back to fetch it a few hours later it was still where I left it.

So while there probably can be differences between countries, I also think it's too easy to extract too much from one's own experiences, which may not be typical.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by jessriedel on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @01:39PM (#22057018)
I mostly agree, but note that Japan has 126M people, so it's quite large.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by JakeTheAndroid on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @02:10PM (#22057371)
Yeah, but when you compare 126m to 1.3b I feel like you'd expect to see drift between the results. That's 10x the amount of people. If only 1 in every 10 people in each country is willing to break the social norms and ignores social pressures, then China will have 10x the amount of these infractions compared to Japan.

But yes, Japan is not a small country even if it is a relatively small landmass.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by CydeWeys on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @07:35PM (#22060490)
The infractions are per capita. If a country has ten times the population and the same percentage of honest people, then it will have ten times the number of people breaking the social norms.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by wisty on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @07:58PM (#22060647)
China is rapidly developing. A lot of Chinese people would LOVE to see a move towards a lot of what Japan has, they just haven't been able to implement it yet (because of historical reasons that left the country screwed up).
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by claudeganon on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:39PM (#22058235)
> a more aligned politics/media system that doesn’t foment distrust.

Japan is essentially a right-wing, one-party “democracy” put in place by US intelligence services, postwar. The current prime minister is literally the grandson of a CIA-backed war criminal, who was famously known as the “Devil of the Showa Period”:

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi

Freedom of the press is absolutely abysmal in Japan and has been further on the downslide since Abe came to power:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/japan-accused-...

I speak Japanese, have spent a lot of time in the country, and have a great admiration for its people, but about the last thing I’d express any admiration for are its politics and media. And speaking anecdotally, very few people there seem to put much trust in them either.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by nwienert on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @05:23PM (#22059462)
I didn’t express admiration, I just pointed out the reasons the people have such high trust and cooperation.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by magduf on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:32AM (#22066083)
>I speak Japanese, have spent a lot of time in the country, and have a great admiration for its people, but about the last thing I’d express any admiration for are its politics and media.

While the media might not be great, at least the politicians, right-wing as they may be, actually seem to be trying to do things to improve the country, and even pushing some relatively progressive ideas (for instance, they're pushing for more women in corporate leadership positions, something Japan is woefully behind on). I just can't say the same for America these days; our national government (and especially the executive branch) is moving things backwards and making things worse.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by claudeganon on Thursday January 16, 2020 @03:37PM (#22068627)
Abe has a good PR team pushing this narrative abroad, but it doesn’t map to the material reality of most women. While female labor force participation rates are up, most women are locked into lower-level positions with bad wages and little hope of advancement.

Likewise, women still face a level of misogyny in Japan that is truly unimaginable to most Americans. This has been led in no small part by Abe and the LDP, who insist on the enforcement of absolutely regressive social mores. Most recently, they vehemently opposed women being allowed to keep their own last names upon marriage.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by magduf on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:35PM (#22070269)
>Abe has a good PR team pushing this narrative abroad

>While female labor force participation rates are up, most women are locked into lower-level positions with bad wages and little hope of advancement.

How is that the government's fault? That sounds like a problem at the corporations. In any democratic country, the government only has so much power over the personnel decisions of companies. You can argue they should have more regulation, but how exactly do you force companies to promote more women into the executive ranks without having the government basically take over the corporations (which reeks of authoritarianism)?

>This has been led in no small part by Abe and the LDP, who insist on the enforcement of absolutely regressive social mores.

Examples?

>Most recently, they vehemently opposed women being allowed to keep their own last names upon marriage.

Did they succeed?

As for misogyny and Americans, is Japan trying to ban abortion? They most certainly are in America, and it's quite possible it'll happen to some extent thanks to Trump's SCOTUS appointees.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by omegaworks on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:06PM (#22057920)
Immigration has been steadily increasing in Japan.[1] That homogeneity presupposes trust is a right-wing stereotype used to devalue immigrants in a society and justify harsh enforcement. You can find people of every ethnicity in Tokyo, including many half and full Brazilian people that you could mistake for latinos here in the US[2].

1. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/03/11/national/japan-...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilians_in_Japan#Migration_...

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by swebs on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:36PM (#22058197)
>Ethnic groups: Japanese 98.1%, Chinese 0.5%, Korean 0.4%, other 1% (includes Filipino, Vietnamese, and Brazilian)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @04:47PM (#22059094)
It's true that Japan has a lot more ethnic homogenity than most countries, but this is is a misleading statistic. The Japanese census considers all people with Japanese citizenship to be simply "Japanese" regardless of their race.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by yorwba on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @06:03PM (#22059792)
There have been 559,789 naturalizations total from 1952 to 2018: http://www.moj.go.jp/content/001180510.pdf

Many of those have probably died by now, but likely not without leaving a few descendants. So there may be a million or so Japanese citizens with a family background involving migration within the last few generations.

Ainu, Ryukyuans and Burakumin should probably also be counted as "non-homogeneous", even though they're not "foreign".

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by NalNezumi on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @08:00PM (#22060659)
besides from naturalizations, there's also quite few half-japanese people that acquire citizenship by birth-right. Although I'm pretty sure the wide consensus in Japan is that half-japanese is considered non-japanese, so the number would go down a little bit more.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by acidtoyman on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @11:27PM (#22061689)
Do you have a source for that? It's certainly not the legal case.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by nwienert on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:26PM (#22058098)
Go to Japan. Immigration is absolutely nothing like European or American countries.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by omegaworks on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @06:03PM (#22059798)
I have. I've been to Tokyo. When I said you can find people of every ethnicity, I meant I encountered people of every ethnicity.

1 in 10 residents of Tokyo are foreign nationals[1]. https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXMZO32872510R10C18A7EA2000/

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by yorwba on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @06:09PM (#22059837)
> 東京都では20歳代の10人に1人が外国人だった。

1 in 10 people in their twenties. (Still more than I expected.)

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by m4rtink on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @08:20PM (#22060770)
The situation is very very different outside of a few big cities. We spent a few days in Izumo and in the area around it and we hardly saw any non Japanese at the turrist spots, let alone any locals.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @05:28PM (#22059502)
> That homogeneity presupposes trust is a right-wing stereotype used to devalue immigrants in a society and justify harsh enforcement.

The fact it's a right wing idea doesn't mean it's wrong. A nation's laws is written by its people. The fact is different peoples have different cultures and follow different sets of rules. The ideal immigrant is the one who naturalizes and fully integrates into the existing society. What usually happens is they stick together in foreigner groups for mutual support. They maintain their culture and continue living by the same rules they are used to.

It is extremely demoralizing to see people not only break the rules we follow but come out ahead for doing so while escaping any retribution. It's even worse when foreigners do it because it simply isn't part of their culture. If a group of people doesn't litter the streets and foreigners who think nothing of it suddenly arrive, they will be looked down upon.

> You can find people of every ethnicity in Tokyo, including many half and full Brazilian people that you could mistake for latinos here in the US

A relative minority. Many more japanese live in Brazil than the other way around.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by omegaworks on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @06:50PM (#22060187)
>What usually happens is they stick together in foreigner groups for mutual support.

Which is why proactive government outreach and support is so important. Why trust-building is important. People need to understand the VASTLY different role police play in Japan, and they need that information communicated in accessible ways. Harsh enforcement degrades that trust and creates insularity. Immigrants provide benefits to the host countries' economies, but rather than use some of that wealth to create and foster social programs, host country politicians instead use these communities as a scapegoat for the anger generated by austerity's impacts on the working poor.

Countries want the economic benefits of immigrants without the necessary investment in immigrant communities.

>They maintain their culture and continue living by the same rules they are used to.

Every person understands theft and the effects it has. This notion that the immigrant or their community is somehow inherently lesser or more tolerant or capable of anti-social behavior is textbook xenophobia.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @08:35PM (#22060856)
> Harsh enforcement degrades that trust and creates insularity.

Indeed. It increases the risk associated with being part of that society. I don't know what the correct answer is.

> Countries want the economic benefits of immigrants without the necessary investment in immigrant communities.

Many immigrants also want the benefits of living in a developed country with a high quality of life without fully integrating into the society that made it possible in the first place.

> Every person understands theft and the effects it has.

Yes, but the rules and consequences for violating them are not universal. Depending on where they come from, violence may be an acceptable way to resolve conflicts. In some circles, people are immediately held accountable for their actions. In other circles, they might be quietly excluded from a group.

> This notion that the immigrant or their community is somehow inherently lesser or more tolerant or capable of anti-social behavior is textbook xenophobia.

Not all immigrants will be like this but it is a mistake to simply ignore their background. Every immigrant has the potential to naturalize but it is also important to think about what could happen should they fail to integrate.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by progman32 on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @08:51PM (#22060943)
> The ideal immigrant is the one who naturalizes and fully integrates into the existing society.

Ideal according to what metric(s)?

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by gnaritas on Thursday January 16, 2020 @02:05AM (#22062252)
According to the population who already lives there and have well-established laws and customs. Humans are tribal, diversity isn't generally desired by most.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by fiblye on Thursday January 16, 2020 @12:44AM (#22061983)
I live in the Japanese city with the highest number of Brazilian immigrants. My wife works for a law firm.

Most of their cases are insurance settlements and divorce disputes. They have a few criminal cases, but the overwhelming majority are foreigners. Americans get occasional shoplifting busts, and virtually all drug and violent crime issues are Brazilians and some Filipinos. “Virtually” as in in the year she’s been there, they’ve all been foreigners except for maybe 2 domestic violence cases. Drug distribution cases involving immigrants come in at a rate of at least once a week.

There’s no slum or anything resembling a ghetto here, and virtually all of them have decent employment with auto manufacturers.

Side note, I’m a foreigner as well.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by nitwit005 on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @06:39PM (#22060089)
Clearly, it's a lasting side effect of the Meiji Restoration, because it's one of the few things I remember about Japanese history.

While that was a joke, that does seem to be how people pick these explanations. Everything about Japan seems to be explainable by social homogeneity, WW2, or philosophy/religion, which is just the set of facts foreigners tend to know about Japan.

I can't explain my own culture, and I've actually studied its history. I'm not even confident I can identify the differences it has with other cultures. We're often more similar than we think.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by factsaresacred on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @01:31PM (#22056944)
Shame and the homogeneous makeup of the population likely play large roles.

Comparing China to Japan won't do any good as the cultural revolution decimated its social capital.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by virtuous_signal on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @01:34PM (#22056969)
I don't know about that last part. Most Eastern European countries were part of the USSR and underwent massive revolutions. I've even seen them described as low-trust societies, but they seem to do well.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by factsaresacred on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @01:49PM (#22057128)
The Cultural Revolution was unlike the political revolutions of Eastern Europe. It was a bloody orgy of violence and vandalism that attempted to tear traditional Chinese culture out from the roots, and in the process destroyed China's social fabric and trust, perhaps irreparably (or at least until the Party collapses and the country can confront its past - something the Eastern European nations have been allowed to do).

An excerpt from the book 'Out of Mao's Shadow':

> Families were torn apart as wives divorced husbands who had been accused of political crimes, children condemned parents, and siblings turned against one another. When the Cultural Revolution finally ended, it was easier for many people just to move on than talk about it...

> ...Such violence has not been expunged from the country’s collective memory so much as repressed, and repressed memories have a way of surfacing unexpectedly. There have always been voices in China calling on the nation to confront the barbarity of the Cultural Revolution. Only with an honest accounting and thoughtful examination of the era, they argue, can the country come to terms with the legacy of mistrust and moral decay that haunts it today.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by vkou on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @02:27PM (#22057551)
The cultural revolution was not the cause of this. Chinese history did not start in 1966. 1966 was preceded by six decades of brutal military occupation, a complete breakdown of law and order, and civil war.

I'm not sure you can point at any country that had gone through such a violent, unstable, and lengthy period of fragmentation and bloodshed, and came out on the other end as a cohesive, high-trust society.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by shadofx on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:08PM (#22057942)
Taiwan and South Korea were both bloody, autocratic military regimes. Many nations have walked the bridge to hell and back, but the cultural revolution meant that China burned the bridge after crossing it.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by vkou on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @04:55PM (#22059182)
One of your examples further proves my point - nobody can categorize Taiwan as a high-cohesion, high-trust society, despite not having a 1966 moment.

The other's not a very close parallel.

Korea was under Japanese occupation in that same time period, which was no picnic, but it at least had a functional, centralized government, and at least, was not an active warzone through most of it. (It is more similar to post-war Eastern Europe in that regard.)

It also did not go through a multi-decade-long civil war.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by MagnumOpus on Thursday January 16, 2020 @05:28AM (#22063255)
> nobody can categorize Taiwan as a high-cohesion, high-trust society

Having done business in both, it is an order of magnitude better than mainland China, both in terms of civil society (helping out strangers, littering, tax dodging etc) and in terms of larger-scale trust issues (prevalence of fraud). Same goes for Korea. (As for Korea not being an active war zone and having a functional centralized government in WW2... the Korean War put paid to that pretty quickly.)

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by vkou on Thursday January 16, 2020 @03:58PM (#22068836)
> Having done business in both, it is an order of magnitude better than mainland China, both in terms of civil society (helping out strangers, littering, tax dodging etc)

Your personal anecdotal experience does necessarilly agree with the statistics. There's a difference, but not an order of magnitude one.

According to the corruption perception index, Japan is at 73, the US is at 71, Taiwan at 63, Korea is at 57, India is at 41, China is at 39, and the Phillipines are at 37. Neither India, nor the Phillipines had a 1966 moment, if I may point out.

According to trust polling, people in China trust their peers, and businesses more than in most other countries, but I'd assume you would want to dismiss that result.

I can't think of a good objective proxy besides those two. Do you know of one?

> As for Korea not being an active war zone and having a functional centralized government in WW2... the Korean War put paid to that pretty quickly.

The Korean war lasted 3 years, and was largely a proxy conflict, with clearly-defined sides, largely made up of foreign armies.

The Chinese civil war lasted 30, without anyone having a clear understanding of who the enemy was.

It's like saying "The United States had a civil war, and it's now fine!" There's more than an order of magnitude difference in the cultural trauma of a war that lasts a few years, and one that lasts an entire generation.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by heavenlyblue on Thursday January 16, 2020 @01:02AM (#22062048)
Yeah, but North Korea is still deep in the hole
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by ido on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @02:21PM (#22057493)
What do you mean when you say eastern european countries "do well" (supposedly compared to China)?

Some (like the Baltics) are doing great, but I don't think I'd rather live in Moldova, the Ukraine or Albania rather than China.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by virtuous_signal on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @02:26PM (#22057545)
“Well” was the wrong word (unless one is thinking of the experiment as a test). I simply meant the percentage of lost wallets returned. In the study from Science that the LA Times article covers, this group of countries as a block did better than all countries from South America or Asia, for instance.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by namelosw on Thursday January 16, 2020 @03:06AM (#22062521)
In China, it's very common to leave your property out of sight for minutes and it would be stolen. Collectivism isn't really associated to this topic at all.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by CydeWeys on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @07:33PM (#22060482)
Syncretic Shintoism/Buddhism is pervasive in Japan. It's absolutely not true that only 3-4% believe in it. The real figure is way higher. The issue is it's not a religion that you believe in in the same sense as, say, Christianity; there's a lot of disparate practices that most people adhere to at least some of.

Just walking around in Japanese cities, you see shrines everywhere. Way more than you see churches in US cities even (admittedly the typical shrine is a lot smaller).

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by m4rtink on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @08:25PM (#22060793)
BTW, the japanese Shinto shrines and Budhist temples just seem so much more alive and part of the community, than western churches, which often seem like almost foreign and disconnected from actual current society.
Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by remarkEon on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @09:02PM (#22061017)
Part of this, imo, has to do with the architecture and it will really depend on the city (speaking from a US perspective) you're in. If you're in Philadelphia or an older city on the East Coast some of the old Catholic or Episcopalian Churches/Cathedrals do feel like they're integrated into the community because they were built around the same time as the rest of the buildings and housing. In the midwest this trend kind of wanes, as many of the Catholic Churches were built after Vatican II and ... don't have the same kind of aesthetic, to put it mildly, and weren't necessarily built the same time other housing was built. By the time you get to the West Coast you'll start finding examples again that feel like they belong there, like Spanish Missions. So it's mostly age and the timeframe in which everything was built.

All that said, I've greatly enjoyed my trips to Japan and feel the same way about their Shrines.

Re:Why Japan is so successful at returning lost property by CydeWeys on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:10AM (#22065837)
Yeah, and there's evidence everywhere that these shrines are active. They're taken care of, there's always offerings, old cemeteries centuries old are littered with recent wooden arches, ribbons, flowers, and other recent stuff, and bigger shrines with attendants have long lines to get red book stamps.