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Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by Scarblac on Monday January 13, 2020 @11:25AM (#22035777)
A photon isn't both a particle and a wave. It's something else that happens to share some features with both.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by phkahler on Monday January 13, 2020 @01:16PM (#22037026)
>> A photon isn't both a particle and a wave. It's something else that happens to share some features with both.

But physicists have given up on figuring out what it IS. They have decided that having math that can predict the outcome of experiments is enough. They're not wrong, but it feels rather unsatisfying. IMHO there have been a couple avenues worth exploring that are being largely ignored.

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by frenchyatwork on Monday January 13, 2020 @01:33PM (#22037174)
> But physicists have given up on figuring out what it IS.

It depends on what you mean by that. What they've given up on is trying to find some sort of anthropocentric analogy. It's understandable that this is unsatisfying, since analogies are fundamental to how we understand things. Unfortunately, there's no reason to believe that a good analogy will exist.

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by phkahler on Monday January 13, 2020 @08:10PM (#22040739)
>> Unfortunately, there's no reason to believe that a good analogy will exist.

That's no reason not to try. If there IS an objective reality I think it deserves a better description than just the math which characterizes its behavior.

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by frenchyatwork on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @03:40PM (#22058248)
If would be tremendous if someone can come up with one, I'm sure they'd be quite popular, but good analogies don't grow on trees.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by ibeckermayer on Monday January 13, 2020 @02:36PM (#22037769)
We shouldn't be looking for analogies, we should be looking for theories consisting of precise concepts that directly explain what is happening in the universe.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by Koshkin on Monday January 13, 2020 @06:06PM (#22039764)
Ultimately, math is the only "explanation" that physics will ever offer.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by peteradio on Monday January 13, 2020 @01:47PM (#22037292)
Its not satisfying because its not intuitive. Its not intuitive because our billion years of evolution never exposed use to such experiences to observe. If we limit ourselves to only whats intuitive it will be necessarily limiting to our ability to make new discoveries.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by ibeckermayer on Monday January 13, 2020 @02:53PM (#22037938)
Let's grant the point that there may be some phenomena in the universe the human mind is not equipped to understand (which is a nuanced position but we can ignore those nuances for now):

Why should we assume that the contradictions in contemporary theories are of this special, inexplicable type? Every era has contradictions, before they are resolved... But they'll only ever be resolved if people are trying to resolve them, meaning that they haven't resigned themselves to the idea that our minds haven't been gifted with the capacity to make sense of our experience.

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by carapace on Monday January 13, 2020 @02:13PM (#22037545)
I was thinking about this just last night.

One of my favorite books is called "Architecture of Matter", it's a history of ideas about matter. One early idea was that matter is made of little tiny bits of stuff and that qualities of these little bits (such as being smooth or spikey) leads to macroscopic phenomenon (like spikey bits being acidic.)

The problem with this idea (and almost all others) is that it's just pushing the problem down a level: If matter is made out of little bits of matter, what are the little bits of matter made of?

FWIW, the wave-particle duality gets around this self-reflexive problem. Matter is made out of some other kind of stuff. But then, as you say, we still have the essential problem of "wtf is this stuff?" but we don't worry about that so much as long as our math describes the behavior of the stuff.

> They're not wrong, but it feels rather unsatisfying. IMHO there have been a couple avenues worth exploring that are being largely ignored.

What avenues? (Genuinely curious, not trolling.) It seems to me that the ultimate, existential question of what "stuff" actually is, is unanswerable (within the logical/scientific framework.)

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by phkahler on Monday January 13, 2020 @08:16PM (#22040786)
>> What avenues?

Pilot wave theory is one. The other was a paper - forgive this explanation - the found equivalence between particle physics and fluid dynamics. Suggesting the objects in physics might be modeled as say vorticies in some kind of fluid (aether). The equivalence was IIRC only to first order, but the work to get there must have been a lot. I'm sure there are others.

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by carapace on Wednesday January 15, 2020 @11:27PM (#22061687)
Cheers!
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by ibeckermayer on Monday January 13, 2020 @01:16PM (#22037022)
Fair point, so then let me reframe the inconsistency as: there’s a phenomena that appears exhibits properties of both a particle and a wave but it can’t be both. So what is it?

And the criticism of mainstream thought in physics would be: its wrongfully dismissive of my question, and ignoring the important job of looking for the answer.

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by SAI_Peregrinus on Monday January 13, 2020 @01:58PM (#22037405)
No, the mainstream physics reply is "It's a quantized excitation of the electromagnetic field." since that's a perfectly reasonable reply to a perfectly reasonable question.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by shuspect on Monday January 13, 2020 @02:28PM (#22037684)
"Height field" is mathematical model of land.

Electromagnetic filed is mathematical model of what?

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by cygx on Monday January 13, 2020 @03:42PM (#22038342)
Electromagnetism is a U(1) gauge theory. If you take the accompanying classical geometry at face value, there's hidden state at each point in space, like some sort of dial. The absolute position of the dial is irrelevant, but the gauge potential tells you how the dial turns as you move from place to place. The electromagnetic field strength is something called curvature of the corresponding 'connection'. The mathematics are a bit involved, but morally speaking, I would say it tells you how the turning of the dial varies across space.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by shpeedy on Monday January 13, 2020 @06:21PM (#22039881)
So, EM field describes strength of EM force in every point of mathematical model. Nature of EM force is unknown. Right?

Let's talk about nature of EM force.

Analogy: look at a typical tropical cyclone. It rotates. Is it rotating because a unknown property of an air molecule? No. It rotates because our planet rotates, while air molecules are just trying to keep their positions. I.e. it's rotation of planet + inertia of molecules.

Is it possible that EM force is happens because our local space is moving trough global space by non-linear trajectory, so it just non-linear trajectory of local space + inertia of rotating and vibrating particles?

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by Koshkin on Monday January 13, 2020 @06:09PM (#22039787)
Not exactly only mathematical, though - you can feel it as you walk across.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by shpeedy on Monday January 13, 2020 @06:26PM (#22039932)
I feel also air field (wind), height field (land), light field (photons), and so on.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by Koshkin on Monday January 13, 2020 @06:53PM (#22040156)
My point exactly - fields are real, they are not merely mathematical models. (It's just that some words acquire a more precise meaning, being formalized as part of a model, and while it's true that models may contain an additional "scaffolding" that has no analogue in reality, field is not one of those.)
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by shpeedy on Monday January 13, 2020 @07:28PM (#22040436)
Field is mathematical abstraction, used in mathematical model, to represent a physical thing.

Physical things are real. Mathematical abstractions are not. OpenGL is not real too, but it looks very real and accurately predicts reality. In OpenGL, field is array, e.g. "float[][][] field;".

Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by Koshkin on Monday January 13, 2020 @08:26PM (#22040874)
That’s like saying, “Cat is a word used in a language to represent a physical thing.”
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by shpeedy on Tuesday January 14, 2020 @06:31AM (#22043819)
No, it's like saying that nature is built on kind of vertex buffer, because OpenGL accurately predicts reality.
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by pixl97 on Monday January 13, 2020 @02:43PM (#22037833)
How about "it's a thing that does not have an analog at the macro scale in which humans exist, therefore any explanation that does not use terminology from our daily lives will be unsatisfactory"
Re:Why the foundations of physics have not progressed for 40... by brutt on Monday January 13, 2020 @05:06PM (#22039244)
It has analog at macro-scale: it's a particle surrounded by a wave. Double split experiment is reproduced in macro almost decade ago!