This doesn’t sound like a life-saving approach at all. Helps to frame it as the idea, not the person, that’s idiotic. Then work on being a better communicator who’s powerful at getting concepts across.

I'm not sure - stigma can actually be quite effective at compelling action.

Entertaining anti-vaccination as a non idiotic concept costs lives.

Maybe stupidity should be ridiculed? We've tried taking it seriously and it isn't helping.

Very recently UK medics noticed some highly deleterious effects of Tetra Fluenz flu vaccine and pushed back the earliest age for its use to 24 months. They not only entertained not vaccinating, they advise it.

It's irrational to not consider the question of whether taking a vaccine is right (for yourself [or dependents], and for the population).

There's a big difference between a flu vaccination and MMR.

Not as big as you are thinking the MMR is normally given after one year. This is because there are some know potential negative side effects when babies get it earlier.

The point is that society already evaluates these hazards/risks very effectively so that individual parents don't need to. Indeed any individual parent's risk analysis about vaccines is likely to put their children at greater risk.

Vaccines can kill or have hugely deleterious consequences for some.

The Tetra Fluenz flu vaccine, according to UK medical authorities, has some negative effects (flu like symptoms, not just a pain in the arm) on ≥1:10 recipients, https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/29112.

The problem with the simplistic "just get vaccinated" approach is when it fails you've nothing to fall back on because you weren't honest to start with.

"Take this and you won't get flu, it's _perfectly_ safe", the child gets sick from the vaccine, then gets flu anyway. So, now I should trust you? That would be irrational.

Vaccines are absolutely right for public health, they may not (in rare cases) be right for specific individuals. As vaccination rate increases (close to full vaccination) the mathematical reasoning based on not becoming personally sick sides with _not_ get vaccinated.

Moreover, vaccination advice from medics does change, infant flu vaccinations has been pushed back recently. Presumably you'd have people ignore that advice and vaccinate anyway because 'not getting vaccinated is always "idiocy"'? In your opinion it seems 'just disgusting whether vaccination is right is idiocy'?

tl;dr people lying that vaccines always work for individuals is bad in the same way as those lying that vaccines don't work.

Could you stop mingling "flu like symptoms" with "serious ongoing consequences"?

Every single Flu-vaccine has a high probability of showing flu-like symptoms. These are from a medicinal standpoint nothing compared to the seriousness of the real flu.

Even MMR-Vaccines are expected to cause a harmless form of "vaccine-measles", which can show up as mild rash, low fever, etc. Again, no these are not to be concerned about.

These vaccination-associated symptoms are widely harmless and there is no reason to mingle them with ongoing side-effects caused by vaccinations.

For sure, confusion was not intended.

People act as if vaccination is perfect and has no risks and that people who try and consider the risks are thus stupid.

>"These vaccination-associated symptoms are widely harmless"

So, mild symptoms are mild, got you.

But you accept that there are people getting life altering illnesses from vaccinations?

Eg https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/guillainbarre.htm says about 1-2 per million vaccinations.

Why did you leave out this (essential) information that associates your cherry-picked statement?: (emphasis mine)

>The data on the association between GBS and seasonal flu vaccination are variable and inconsistent across flu seasons. If there is an increased risk of GBS following flu vaccination it is small, on the order of one to two additional GBS cases per million doses of flu vaccine administered.

They clearly never state your conclusion, they said 'If there is such an increased risk, it is incredibly small'.

Now the question is, why would you do that?

This is a brief conversation on a mobile phone, I clearly sourced my backing for that statement.

Answer this - does vaccination have any major health risks?

>tl;dr people lying that vaccines always work for individuals is bad in the same way as those lying that vaccines don't work.

Fully agree with you, pbhjpbhj. The nuance in the discussion is missing(no surprises). To add to the confusion we have both the govt and pharmas involved, and both entities are know for coverups. So who should a person trust? Yes a vaccine can potentially work very well, but it is only to the extent that it has been well designed and tested, no different from any other product or medicine.