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Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:03AM (#21946408)
Your comment made me think of a very important data point: what percentage of people who get an electric car (or just make it Tesla specific) would ever consider owning an ICE car again? I'm hoping it would be very low.

I own a Chevy Volt, and I know I'll never own a non-electric car again. Yes, I know my car has a gas engine, but I almost never use it (it is still very handy to keep me from having "range anxiety"), and honestly when it does switch on it just reminds me how I never want to own a pure-ICE car again.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by cocoflunchy on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:57AM (#21946977)
According to this Bloomberg survey: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey..., 79.8% of Model 3 buyers strongly agree with "I will never buy another gasoline-powered car" (and 13.4% agree)
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by bane on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:14AM (#21946532)
tbh, electric tech has gotten very good in general. In the last couple years I've replaced my lawn mower and chainsaw with all electric models. They share the same battery so I can just move the battery between the two devices.

In terms of performance, they're 90-95% as good as the gas models they replaced. But they bring so many other benefits to the table that I'm simply not ever going to go back -- mostly the lack of exhaust fumes, the much lower (and less messy) maintenance, and much much quieter.

There's still some use-cases where the gas variants are better, just like in vehicles, but they are few and far between and it's often worth it to just figure out how to get around using the gas models.

I really don't think there's a turning back at this point. It's really now a matter of filling out all the market ecosystems with electric vehicles.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by ek750 on Friday January 03, 2020 @03:23PM (#21949919)
I’m glad to hear electric lawn care equipment is becoming more viable.

i've got a strong hatred for the loud, smelly 2 stroke engines that wake me when trying to rest, and then the fumes... ugh.

im sure the anti-gov regulations people will disagree but, i cant wait for 2 stroke lawn equipment to be banned. there’s no way commercial gardeners will willingly switch to something more expensive with a shorter runtime unless forced to.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by japhyr on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:32AM (#21946705)
What electric chainsaw do you have? I cut ~3 cords of firewood a year, from logs ~12-20" in diameter, and I'll be happy to buy an electric saw at some point. But I haven't seen one that seems suitable for longer cutting sessions with moderate-sized rounds.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by cptskippy on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:13AM (#21947149)
Most electric tools are fine for the majority of people or in certain situations but they're absolutely not for everyone and not 100% replacement for all jobs.

It's best not to think of them as straight up replacements in all cases because there is overlap. Think about drivers and wrenches, do you own battery powered versions? Have they completely replaced your traditional drivers or wrenches? Have they completely replaced your corded power tools? Do you have multiple 12/18/20/24v variants of the same tool?

If someone asked me to mow the lawn at my last home with a battery powered lawn mower, I would have laughed in their face. The roots and rocks in the lawn would have destroyed an electric mower's blade on the first mow. At my current home I would consider it, but yard size might be a limiting factor. For the home I'm in the process of purchasing it will be preferred as the yard is so small..

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by dharmon on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:32AM (#21947395)
I have the Ryobi 40V lawnmower, chainsaw, and pole saw. (they're great!)

For really hard woods I get about 30-45 min out of the chain saw per battery. I use it for chopping up fallen trees (I live in a heavily-wooded area) so haven't done firewood exactly. I have 2 batteries and I get tired before I run down the second one.

Its kinda fun how it goes from dead silent to ripping through a tree. Although the bar length is probably too short for your needs. Plus a cord is a lot of wood (to me).

I figured anything that needs a more powerful chainsaw is best left to a professional anyway, so the battery-powered saw acts like a built-in buffer on hurting myself.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by bane on Friday January 03, 2020 @08:26PM (#21952100)
> For really hard woods I get about 30-45 min out of the chain saw per battery.

One of the things that might not be clear to users of the gas equipment, when you say "30-45 min" that means active cutting. Unlike a 2-stroke, it doesn't have to be burning gas to be ready to cut.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by ghaff on Friday January 03, 2020 @12:36PM (#21948184)
My gas weed whacker stopped working properly last year. I decided to get a Ryobi battery-powered one rather than fix the gas one. It's not quite as powerful and I'll probably end up getting a second battery.

OTOH, there's no fussing, it's quieter, and I also got a brush cutter attachment which can handle some places I pretty much had to do manually before.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by bane on Friday January 03, 2020 @03:26PM (#21949945)
I use the Greenworks line of tools. It's about as powerful as the gas Stihl I've used previously. The key was to use the larger battery that the lawnmower uses instead of the smaller one. It's a little heavier, but lasts quite a while. The only challenge is the recharge time is not as fast as topping up the tank.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by Robotbeat on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:08AM (#21947101)
I have a corded electric chainsaw (which I got for free). Should run practically indefinitely. Thinking of getting a beefy, over-powered pure sine inverter so I can run it from my electric car. Could get a smaller battery powered one for more mobile use.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by newnewpdro on Friday January 03, 2020 @12:01PM (#21947744)
A corded one seems like a great choice. I can't imagine a battery-operated one lasting long enough to be practical without getting quite big and heavy.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by dvdkhlng on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:05AM (#21947056)
I don't know anything about chainsaws, but the parent mentioned being able to remove the chainsaw's battery pack. With enough batteries, and maybe concurrent charging, any length of cutting sessions should be possible.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by SEJeff on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:07AM (#21946463)
I think it is the little things. One of my family members drove up to see me recently and I let them park in my garage. I was blown away when I walked into the garage with the smell of oil and gas. Granted, their car is an early 90s corolla, but still. Then I worried about oil leaking and put down a drip mat.

The thought of owning an ICE vehicle after owning a Tesla Model 3 for a year (Nov 2018 is when we took delivery) just does not sound appetizing whatsoever. My wife, who was originally a skeptic, is the one that suggested we sell our 2011 Ford Fiesta after purchasing the Tesla.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by zcw100 on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:44AM (#21946829)
This makes no sense to me. After driving around an extremely inexpensive Ford Fiesta (14k MSRP for a 2019) you purchase a 40k Tesla then think, "Maybe I should get rid of the Fiesta"?

So you could have easily afforded a more expensive care but thought, "na, I'll go with the Fiesta. I don't like spending money on cars" but then said, "oh hell ya, I'm buying the Tesla" because you've got 40K burning a hole in your pocket?

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by Robotbeat on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:11AM (#21947134)
Because it's smelly, messy, and requires much more regular maintenance and weekly gas station trips. If you're not super cash-strapped, an electric car is a pretty fantastic value. And if you are cash-strapped, there are some great deals on used Nissan Leafs and Chevy Volts (depending on your use case) out there. End up saving the difference in money on gas and maintenance.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by ScottFree on Friday January 03, 2020 @12:09PM (#21947849)
I'll be very interested to see how Teslas hold up after 10+ years. I own a 15 year old Audi that I drive maybe once a week. Every time I start it up, something new has failed. It could be another broken sensor, a worn rubber hose, a broken plastic clip, a short in the electronics causing a parasitic power drain, etc.

Part of it is the age, but part of it is that gas cars are designed to be driven. Letting them sit for any period of time will cause headaches. Electric cars should, in theory, be better in that regard as long as you leave them plugged in.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by tastygreenapple on Friday January 03, 2020 @04:01PM (#21950321)
You're probably putting too much explanatory power in 'electric' vs 'gas'.

I'll speculate that things are failing on your Audi because it's an Audi, not because its gas powered. Go find someone driving a 15+ year old Lexus and ask them if something new breaks every time they drive. It's unlikely that they'll commiserate.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by semi-extrinsic on Friday January 03, 2020 @01:02PM (#21948504)
How is it fantastic value when it costs almost 3x as much?

I'm actually buying a new (used) car right now. Around the $15k mark, I can get e.g. a 4 year old 7 seater that's done 60k miles. Based on my previous car ownership, I expect to spend around $700/year on average on maintenance, and around $1000/year on fuel. In total, I can expect a first year total cost of 700+1000+1500 = $3200 of which the biggest cost is a 10% depreciation. If I were to buy a $40k Model 3 (with less seats, less cargo capacity) that had 0 maintenance and 0 fuel cost, I'd still spend $4000 the first year to depreciation alone. 4000 > 3200. How are you saving anything?

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by Robotbeat on Friday January 03, 2020 @03:02PM (#21949745)
I bought a used Volt about the same age and miles for the same price ($10k-$15k). Its starting MSRP was the same as a Model 3 is now. So I have almost all the advantages of an electric car. Model 3s will get there, too, eventually (the fact that used prices are still super high tells you that people love the car... also, they've only had the cheaper trims in large numbers for the last year or so).

Your argument can be applied to any new car. Buying used EVs will be the better deal, just like buying a used ICE is a better deal than a new one. Certainly the case for me. I've spent nothing on maintenance (except tires and wiper blades) and very little on fuel (electricity is equivalent to $1/gallon gasoline).

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by semi-extrinsic on Sunday January 05, 2020 @09:25AM (#21961350)
Sure. Buying a new car, whether EV or ICE, is irrational from a financial standpoint, no matter how you look at it. The argument that a new EV makes financial sense, which was what OP said, is quite clearly untrue and people should stop repeating it.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by SEJeff on Friday January 03, 2020 @01:14PM (#21948638)
You're seeing it wrong. We figured the Tesla would be useful for some things but not for long trips. Since there are gas stations literally everywhere we were worried we'd not be able to take the Tesla on long drives. It turns out we can take the Tesla on long drives everywhere we want to go, so we got rid of the Fiesta.

FWIW, we got every feature on a Model 3 AWD LR sans the 19" wheels, performance, and the white interior. After tax and whatnot it worked out to around $68,000. It had nothing to do with price, but with features / functionality. We bought one of the "higher end" Fiestas (the SEL) in 2011 and I think it worked out to around $20k after all of the options, dealer mess, and taxes.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by zcw100 on Friday January 10, 2020 @10:11AM (#22011455)
I don't think I'm seeing anything wrong and you've only reinforced my point. You replaced a car with one that is over three times the price. Go ahead and compare the vehicles but it's not much of a comparison if you don't include that fact. What kills me about people that promote Tesla is how completely oblivious they are to how unique their situation is and how outside of the norm they are. I have a very high household income, probably in the top %3, and even I know most people don't just drop $68k for a car.

I want to say something I find interesting about Tesla owners. They seem to have a persecution complex where they think every diesel pickup truck is out to coal roll them and those nasty ICE owners are out to key their car the first chance they get. I think it comes from how condescending they know they are with the, "They hate us because they know we're the future" to the "their dirty, stinking, smelly ICE vehicles". And it doesn't take very much to go from, "You're care is dirty, disgusting, and filthy", to "You're dirty, disgusting and filthy". It's the ultimate in hating someone because they're poor. You're dirty, disgusting and filthy and if you don't want to be that way you should drop the extra $40k for a new car like I did.

The sad truth is most people driving either don't think about you at all in your Tesla or if they do think about you probably think, "I wish I had that kind of money, it's kind of neat".

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by esotericn on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:18AM (#21947223)
It's in a different category. I'd think of it more like comparing a TV to a monitor. The latter is more expensive.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by newnewpdro on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:20AM (#21946597)
> suggested we sell our 2011 Ford Fiesta after purchasing the Tesla

It's a Ford Fiesta, you're not saying much here.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by SEJeff on Friday January 03, 2020 @10:35AM (#21946730)
Very very true, but my point is that we've done about a dozen road trips now and the initial range anxiety we had has gone away.

Per https://supercharge.info/changes, Tesla opened, on average, 16 new superchargers in America per month. With the new supercharger v3 rollout it just means even more options. Our Model 3 has a range of 310 miles and there aren't a ton of places we'd actually want to go that we can't go thanks to the supercharger network. Other companies who are trying to make decent EVs still haven't solved the charging problem. EVgo is probably the best fast charging EV network outside of Tesla's, but they're only currently in California I believe.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by alasdair_ on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:09AM (#21947107)
>what percentage of people who get an electric car (or just make it Tesla specific) would ever consider owning an ICE car again? I'm hoping it would be very low.

My wife and I have a model S and a model X and we are seriously considering buying an extremely old 4x4 truck for hauling firewood, trash etc. That's about it however - I'd never go back to an ICE car for regular transport and if it were five years from now I'd get a used Cyber Truck instead of the ICE pickup.

My only real concern is some kind of disaster with a long-term power outage. I live near Seattle and Solar simply isn't cost-efficient compared to the very cheap (and green) hydro power that we have and the PowerWall batteries just don't seem good enough yet to bother getting them. I may go for a natural gas generator to help with any serious outages but that's about it.

My parents in the UK don't have garage space (which is very common there - street parking is the norm in many places) and so they are stuck with ICE for the foreseeable future until infrastructure improves enough that they can charge nightly without needing garage space.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by azhenley on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:41AM (#21947520)
> My parents in the UK don't have garage space (which is very common there - street parking is the norm in many places) and so they are stuck with ICE for the foreseeable future until infrastructure improves enough that they can charge nightly without needing garage space.

I live in an apartment in a not so big city in the US and don't have access to chargers. I still find it very convenient to find places to charge my Tesla and never worry about it!

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by toomuchtodo on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:16AM (#21947197)
We have a hitch on both our S and X for hauling trailers full of wood, trash, etc. Highly recommend over a pickup truck.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by wglb on Friday January 03, 2020 @05:51PM (#21951163)
When thinking about backup generators, consider diesel. Their maintenance is two orders of magnitude less, and the hardware lasts far longer.
Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by mikestew on Friday January 03, 2020 @03:02PM (#21949738)
Driving a first-gen Nissan Leaf that we pre-ordered the day we were able. Eight years later, we’ve decided that we’ve purchased our last ICE. By the time the Leaf battery dies enough to be impractical, the ‘05 Scion can be replaced with whatever the new EV hotness (oh, please build the Buzz, VW). By then, I expect range to enough to just have the one EV and that’s it.

But, man, no more stinky, rattling gas-burners, please. I hop in that Scion, it feels primitive. Even our lawn tools are electric. The Honda generator is the only reason to keep a gas can around.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by esotericn on Friday January 03, 2020 @11:00AM (#21947006)
Right.

I plan to run my Model S into the ground, at which point I imagine the traditional manufacturers will have pulled their fingers out and I can start cycling through second hand electric Honda Civic equivalents like I did with ICE cars.

Re:Tesla Q4 2019 Vehicle Production and Deliveries by rconti on Friday January 03, 2020 @12:51PM (#21948364)
I bought a diesel SUV about a year after buying our Model 3.

But yeah, I can't fathom spending big bucks on an ICE vehicle anymore. It just feels so dated and archaic.