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Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by CapmCrackaWaka on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:32PM (#21840374)
I feel that most of the time candidates just want to hear something that puts the situation out of their control, and therefore wasn't merit based.

It's always easier to hear "I'm breaking up with you because I'm moving for a new job and want to concentrate on my career" than "I'm breaking up with you because you're awkward around my friends and aren't interesting".

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by adamredwoods on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:17PM (#21840662)
Rejection is incredibly difficult to deal with. I suspect some people will say they are immune to it, but (anecdotal example) I've been rejected from hundreds of jobs over the past 3 years and every one hurts a little. I felt it never got easier to deal with rejection, but it got easier to interview and move on.

Perhaps it's not the rejection, but the energy in creating the next steps I need to take (more resumes, taking classes, new career, therapy, etc).

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by cygaril on Friday December 20, 2019 @01:58AM (#21842204)
I agree that rejection is always tough. I spent a year manoeuvring to be made redundant from a job I wanted to leave (e.g. told my boss I wanted to go, made sure everything I did was covered by other people). And still, when they did finally let me go, the rejection did hurt quite a bit.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by Koshkin on Thursday December 19, 2019 @08:34PM (#21841043)
> rejected from hundreds of jobs

Sounds extreme. Were you applying to random jobs?

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by stakhanov on Friday December 20, 2019 @01:25AM (#21842083)
It's not extreme at all. Companies are treating it as a numbers game, which is part of what the article is about. The flipside of the coin is that candidates are forced into treating it as a numbers game too.

For example: As a candidate you might submit a resume and get an automated "Thank you, we'll be in touch". There's a large variety of reasons why you might face a very low probability that someone will indeed be in touch that have nothing to do with you.

The most common is that you're just too late in the process. They might already have dozens of viable candidates in later stages. They are being economical about their interviewers' time, thinking: Well, the probability that all of those later-stage candidates will end up getting terminated is low, so we're not doing first-round interviews for now. But they are not being economical about expectations created in candidates' minds about the likelihood of getting an offer. They've simply defined the process to say: We pull the advertising after the role has been filled, because there is always the chance that we will have to go back to candidates in earlier rounds.

There might be even more extreme cases. Not saying that this is particularly common, but imagine a company has decided they need a diversity hire, say hiring a woman to an all-male tech team. All applications by men may be dead on arrival. They may not want to send out rejection letters so as not to establish the pattern.

Or the role may have already been filled and there may simply be clerical error or clerical laziness to blame about why the advertising hasn't been pulled yet.

So, from a candidate's point of view: "We will be in touch" means almost nothing. Having come across a job ad means less than nothing. Your calculation is simply going to be: I get one human contact out of every ten times I submit a resume. I get one firm offer out of every ten times I get a human contact. I'm shooting for three firm offers to choose from. So that means I have to submit my resume 300 times. Consequently you can't afford to be all too picky. You just submit to everything that could even remotely be a match. You only start putting real brain power into thinking about whether you actually want to work there in later stages of the process.

It's a sad state of affairs, but it's just the world we live in now.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by crispyambulance on Friday December 20, 2019 @08:29AM (#21843947)
It's only a "numbers game" if you treat it as such by "shot-gunning" your applications. Much better to exercise your professional network (in the flesh or online).

The whole point of web-based application process is to weed out as many candidates as possible. If you can skip that step and first make contact with a human, the odds are much better and it's less work and stress for everyone.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by pc86 on Friday December 20, 2019 @09:07AM (#21844177)
I am on my 7th or 8th job now and have only applied to probably 12 in my entire life.

Tailoring resumes to specific postings, and trying to find someone at the company you have some sort of connection with, are both pretty damn important unless, as you say, you're shot-gunning an identical resume to every company within 50 miles.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by stakhanov on Friday December 20, 2019 @09:23AM (#21844304)
...there are plenty of situations that will render your social network useless, for example most of your network might be academics and you might have decided to leave academia. Most of your network might be in companies doing onsite-only in a geographical area you've moved away from. Most of your network might be less-well-paid than you. (So: the jobs you would want to apply for are with hiring managers that your friends don't know and have no influence over and if they did, they would use the opportunity for themselves rather than someone else). -- In my experience, networking just doesn't work as well as business school ideology would have you believe it does for various reasons that I'm going to try to sum up by quoting a Groucho Marx joke: "I'd never join a club that would have someone like me for a member."
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by rightbyte on Friday December 20, 2019 @08:15AM (#21843886)
Sounds like me on Tinder. There is no use thinking to much before first contact anyway. I have to spam and see what happens.

Luckely my experience in job searching has not involved ghosting or spamming. Is that an US thing? Or is "job dating" less parallell in smaller cities or countries?

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by NaCl_af on Friday December 20, 2019 @01:33AM (#21842112)
This year alone I’ve applied to over 800 C# or .Net related positions and have yet to get any offer. It’s incredibly difficult for some of us unfortunately. Precisely 886 if anyone was interested
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by xwowsersx on Friday December 20, 2019 @02:36AM (#21842312)
I do wonder if you're spreading yourself too thin and not focusing on nailing one or two jobs you're really interested in by applying to so many places. I get that it's a numbers game so I truly understand and salute the effort, but I wonder if being rejected from hundreds of jobs is pointing out that something needs to be adjusted. I recently spent a few months finding a job and landed one I'm really happy with. I'm happy to provide feedback and advice if you're interested. Contact details in my profile.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by tjalfi on Friday December 20, 2019 @11:30AM (#21845297)
How popular is .NET in your market? Have you considered learning other technologies to enhance your skillset?

I would recommend that you attend local user group meetings and talk to people. Weak social connections are an excellent source of referrals.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by anongraddebt on Saturday December 21, 2019 @01:47AM (#21850013)
Are having trouble getting interviews, getting offers, or both?
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by adamredwoods on Thursday December 19, 2019 @10:07PM (#21841439)
You're right, it was probably only around two hundred or so jobs I applied to with 50% response/rejection rate over the past 3 years.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by thayne on Friday December 20, 2019 @12:18AM (#21841877)
Unfortunately, for many recent college graduates, it's not.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by lmilcin on Friday December 20, 2019 @07:52AM (#21843773)
To be rejected from hundreds of jobs suggest you should reevaluate how you approach the entire problem.

At the very basic level you should understand what are the expectations of the employer and whether you can fill those expectations. Try to find and talk to people at those positions you are applying to. Try to understand where you fall short.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by mewpmewp2 on Friday December 20, 2019 @02:47AM (#21842365)
Isn't rejection good in the long run? For me it gives clarity especially if there is feedback and it motivated me to try harder and care less.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by StavrosK on Friday December 20, 2019 @07:41AM (#21843702)
It's not better than not getting rejected, no.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by thayne on Friday December 20, 2019 @12:14AM (#21841863)
I don't have hard numbers, but anecdotally, I know two people for whom this is simply not true at all. It took them months to find jobs, and they sincerely wanted to know why they were being rejected. If you are told "we didn't hire you, because you don't have skill X", or "you don't have any experience with Y", then you can focus on getting better at that thing. It was extremely frustrating for them to be told "We found a better candidate", or more commonly, getting no response at all.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by Loughla on Friday December 20, 2019 @08:54AM (#21844096)
The problem is, often, there isn't a skill or experience that is the reason. I literally just went through this.

I interviewed for a position that I am way qualified for. I check every box, in terms of skills and abilities and experience. I'm essentially doing the job right now, just with a different title.

And I was passed over for a less qualified, less experienced candidate. The reason I was given, as I dove through the organization (it's where I work now) to ask for feedback to improve myself professionally, was that there wasn't really anything I can get better at, it was just 'fit'.

I was able to ask probing questions to get to the root of that, and it turns out that, outside of the folks I work with daily, people outside of my division don't necessarily know my leadership abilities. But tell me, how would you even go about quantifying that for an external candidate, other than saying the, very safe, 'we found a better candidate'?

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by michaelborromeo on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:12PM (#21840621)
You really want to go through life thinking you’re competent at something?

Honest feedback hurts but it’s how you grow.

And if people cared at all about interviewees they’d give some semblance of honest feedback rather than “no thanks.”

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by gwbas1c on Thursday December 19, 2019 @08:44PM (#21841099)
> And if people cared at all about interviewees they’d give some semblance of honest feedback rather than “no thanks.”

A former Apple architect once gave me "honest feedback" about the languages I work with. It was his opinion about industry direction, that 8 years later, was 100% wrong. (Although I don't think I was a good match for his startup.)

That's why I consider honest feedback flame bait.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by danaris on Thursday December 19, 2019 @09:58PM (#21841406)
If you get a piece of feedback from one person, you know what you would need to do differently to get hired by that person.

If you get similar pieces of feedback from 3 people, you now likely know what you need to do differently to get hired, period.

It’s not about getting specific, individual pieces of feedback. It’s about being able to triangulate toward what you need to do differently.

And maybe you get 3 pieces of feedback that are all completely contradictory. That tells you that what you need to do is keep trying.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by zeroonetwothree on Thursday December 19, 2019 @11:07PM (#21841651)
That assumes there is no systematic bias. Which clearly there is.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by gunshai on Friday December 20, 2019 @01:05AM (#21842017)
>That assumes there is no systematic bias. Which clearly there is.

This is a non-helpful statement. Humans are bias machines. We function based on our collective experience or in some cases differed experience. Saying there is systemic bias doesn't really add anything other than saying exploit what ever bias you can find to your advantage.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by mewpmewp2 on Friday December 20, 2019 @02:52AM (#21842381)
And receiving that feedback helps you realize if there is any bias and adapt accordingly.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by lxglv on Friday December 20, 2019 @12:46AM (#21841971)
Sure, there may be, and you will have proofs that it exists and may find a way, how to handle it.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by mewpmewp2 on Friday December 20, 2019 @02:50AM (#21842376)
You take the advice with grain of salt. Still better than receiving no feedback. I don't think it is productive to think of it as flame bait.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by gwbas1c on Friday December 20, 2019 @11:57AM (#21845511)
> Still better than receiving no feedback

If he had said, "I need someone with more experience in language XXX," it would have been 100% true for his case, and 100% appropriate for me. I can read the market for technology.

Instead, he basically said, "you have a lot of experience in language YYY, which isn't going anywhere." That was quite subjective, as language YYY has significantly more use and investment since our conversation.

It also isn't really appropriate, because the job was in language XXX, not language YYY. Assuming he hired me, we'd have to agree that my learning curve in language XXX was appropriate for his needs in a developer. (He clearly needed someone who could hop in without much of a learning curve.)

(Remember, sometimes you hire the candidate and expect them to learn the stack on the job, other times you hire someone because they are already an expert in the stack.)

Debates on languages like this are really just pissing matches. IMO, dressing up the debate as "constructive feedback on my merit as a candidate" hurt his credibility in his leadership role.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by adamredwoods on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:19PM (#21840668)
I had to dig to get any type of feedback on my interviews, and even then it wasn't clear on what I needed to do to improve.
Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by Koshkin on Thursday December 19, 2019 @08:25PM (#21841015)
> what

It may be not your fault. Or, it might have been your lucky day, not getting that job. In any case, you need to make damn sure that you know your trade.

Re:Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback by croon on Friday December 20, 2019 @08:30AM (#21843956)
Easier? Yes. Helpful? Not IMHO. I spent my first 20 years on this earth incapable of processing critique, regardless of merit. It was incredibly difficult to get out of that. But once you realize that rejection or critique is just input, you can learn from it. It's obviously not always helpful, but the majority of the time it sure is (YMMV).

You can categorize some cases into these:

1) Someone has observed something you do that you're unaware of, and could work on.

2) Someone has misinterpreted something you do, and now you know they have, but can be glad they told you so you know where they stand, and/or clear the confusion by explaining what really happened.

3) Someone doesn't like something you do, but you are already aware of you doing it, but think your way is better, for reasons X, Y and Z, and if you feel like it you can explain that.

4) Someone who has more experience than you recognizes a behavior from their earlier selves, and points this out so that you get a head start at learning their lesson.

Regardless of the merit of the feedback, you can't process it and deal (or not deal) with it until you hear it.

If you can step away from yourself and just observe and reflect, there are so many things you can learn that I wish I could imprint on a younger me. But at least I'm trying to catch up as a 30-something now.