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Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by henryfjordan on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:26PM (#21839922)
Is the 737-MAX fixable? Boeing is stopping production of them, so they know that it's not going to be for a while, if ever.

The 737-MAX's problem is that they changed the center of gravity of the plane so that it's not stable without an active system to correct that (MCAS). A failure in that system has already crashed 2 planes and killed hundreds. I don't think you can throw an active system on an inherently unstable airframe and call it a fix. Airplanes need to be as fail-safe as possible.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by kayfox on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:35PM (#21839989)
They are suspending production of them to avoid various issues:

1. Cash flow issues, since they have hundreds sitting around they haven't been paid for yet. 2. Storage issues, since they have hundreds sitting around. 3. To make it clear to the FAA that there's a limit to how long re-certification can take without larger economic impacts.

I would fully expect that with Boeing and the Airlines' pressure on the FAA, and the FAA's current schedule, the aircraft should be re-certified in January. It could slip again, with another issue or a government shutdown, but those are not that likely.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by AndrewBissell on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:41PM (#21840046)
> 3. To make it clear to the FAA that there's a limit to how long re-certification can take without larger economic impacts.

Good to know they've got their priorities straight. Would hate to see the U.S. economy lose any jobs building unsafe aircraft.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by DuskStar on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:37PM (#21840407)
How many people does hurting the US economy kill? What about raising ticket prices, making more people drive instead of fly?

There is a trade-off to be made here, and it's not just between money and lives - it's also between the certainty of a small number of deaths and the chance of a large number of the same.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by johannes1234321 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:57PM (#21840133)
One of the issues with the system was that pilots didn't know about the system. It is possible to add an override and train pilots accordingly. The question is what kind of requirements the relevant authorities put on it and when they are willing to sign the papers. After two fatal crashes this isn't a rubber stamp but solvable.
Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by akira2501 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:04PM (#21840194)
> It is possible to add an override and train pilots accordingly.

This was always possible. The reason Boeing didn't do it in the first place is because it would have required full retraining of all pilots.. the promise of the 737-MAX, at least from an airline perspective, is that you can take all your existing 737 pilots and put them through a much shorter cross-training program and immediately have highly qualified staff operating these planes in your fleet.

Without this, the 737-MAX will have to be operated as any other entirely new aircraft. Boeing's mistake here really is manifold.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by johannes1234321 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:07PM (#21840218)
> Without this, the 737-MAX will have to be operated as any other entirely new aircraft.

Whatever they do - scrap it an build a new model (be it derived from 737 pre-MAX or something else) or "fixing" 737-MAX there will be lots of eyes on it and request for training. I don't think the argument is relevant. They are too deep in the sh*t.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by Alupis on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:31PM (#21839963)
While this is true (the MCAS being at fault), it was compounded by incorrect and/or absent reporting of what the MCAS system was doing. One of the indicators was tied to an optional set of features on accident (spaghetti code?), which caused budget airlines that didn't purchase the optional features to not show pilots when there was a problem with MCAS.

That coupled with lack of training of how to react to exactly that scenario, and we have the events that transpired.

All of which is fixable one way or another.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by empath75 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:35PM (#21839993)
If it’s fixable, why isn’t it fixed? Why are they stopping production? It’s been a year.
Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by jdsully on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:37PM (#21840021)
Once the second crash happened there was extra oversight and other issues that were signed off on during the design phase were once again put in question. Its no longer just MCAS being modified but what happens when the two flight computers disagree.

So to answer your question there are now multiple issues at play and they are effectively redesigning the flight computer system as a whole. This is not a quick fix.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by Alupis on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:37PM (#21840020)
Because rushing a fix into production and then having another airline crash would be far more severe than the current situation.

So it makes sense to step back, and fix things the right way before you reintroduce the system back into the market.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by henryfjordan on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:36PM (#21840009)
You can fix the issues that have been found in the MCAS, sure. You can do more training, rewrite the code, introduce more tests/checks, etc...

But what you cannot do is change the fact that the MCAS is necessary. The plane is always and forever going to be off-balanced and require an active system to account for that. Active systems will fail. Maybe they can fix it such that the failure rate is negligible, but I doubt it.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by Alupis on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:39PM (#21840037)
All Airbus airliners (the only other serious airline manufacturer in the world) are fully fly-by-wire and require computers and sensors to even get off the ground, let alone maintain level flight.

Unstable flight profiles are not foreign in aircraft, and requiring computer systems to maintain stable flight is nothing new.

The problem is entirely how this specific system was implemented... and that can be fixed.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by addicted44 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:51PM (#21840095)
The fact that Airbus are fly by wire doesn't mean they are "unstable".

They might be, but fly by wire does not imply that.

For the record, I don't believe Airbus plans are unstable in the way the MAX is, whose instability, from what I understand, came about because they were trying to fit larger engines on the original 737 frame (to prevent pilot retraining), and so had to move the wings higher.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by johannes1234321 on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:04PM (#21840193)
In some avionics podcast A380 pilots described that that huge beast is a quite good glider. This makes sense since you want to reduce fuel usage and just enjoy smooth sailing.

Something like an F-16 however is less stable and requires constant adjustment of flaps etc. there dynamic properties of air to air dogfight are more important.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by henryfjordan on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:52PM (#21840098)
I'm not saying unstable planes cannot be built, just that I don't trust a company that's already had 2 planes go down to get it right.

A quick google search seemed to imply most unstable airframes were military or experimental, not commercial. Unstable airframes are not appropriate for commercial airliners unless you can point to a good reason. "We don't want to train pilots" is a bad reason. The FAA should have pushed back very hard on this point.

Personally I think the flaws in the 737-MAX design process were so deep that it would be safest to just scrap the plane. It's not that the issues cannot be fixed, but rather that we'd be better off starting over from scratch knowing that good design principles will be followed the whole time.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by mlyle on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:02PM (#21840174)
It is not "unstable" in that sense.

At high thrust, slow speed, high aoa it is a little too close to neutrally statically stable.

C f. to airliners that can break up from dynamic yaw instability if the yaw dampers fail in some flight regimes.

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by henryfjordan on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:10PM (#21840242)
Thanks for explaining! I suppose I've been using "unstable" a bit too liberally in this thread.
Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by ClumsyPilot on Thursday December 19, 2019 @06:11PM (#21840251)
Airbus planes don't fall out of the sky when air speed sensor fails.
Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by benjohnson on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:05PM (#21840573)
Air France Flight 447 crashed with all souls on board lost when the air speed sensors on the Airbus A330 failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by ClumsyPilot on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:43PM (#21840798)
Have you read about accident you linked?

"It highlighted the role of the co-pilot in stalling the aircraft while the flight computer was under alternate law at high altitude. This "simple but persistent" human error was given as the most direct cause of this accident"

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by DigitalSea on Thursday December 19, 2019 @07:59PM (#21840889)
I don't know why you are being downvoted, because you are right. While software and sensors to account for unstable airframes is not uncommon in aviation, before the 737 MAX, there has never been a civilian passenger plane with such a dynamically unstable frame requiring real-time correction via software and sensor data. In civilian aircraft, unstable frames like what we saw in the 737 MAX were not a thing. And honestly, I don't want them to become a thing either.

I also acknowledge that the specific terms I use in this comment might not be 100% down to the letter terms used in the aviation industry (such as unstable frame). The point being made here is corners were cut, Boeing is 100% to blame for the situation they find themselves in with the 737 MAX.

In avionics, fighter jets are unstable requiring computers and algorithms to keep them flying. This is in part to the speed of which they travel, the [Dassault Rafale](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale) has multiple levels of redundancy to correct negative flight conditions (it has three computers I believe).

Even with the fixes, the plane is still going to be unstable. However, fortunately, unstable planes like passenger jets which move slower can still be manually flown (unlike fighter jets moving at Mach 1). But, I am definitely not going to fly on a 737 MAX if I can avoid it, not until it has proven itself in service for 10 years. I wouldn't say fixing an engineering problem with the software and additional sensors inspires confidence.

Dynamically unstable airframes should not be a thing in passenger jets. The only reason the 737 MAX is unstable is that they put bigger engines on a 737 and moved them up because of how low the 737 sits on the ground, thus disrupting the centre of gravity and requiring pitch correction when at full thrust.

The Airbus A320 has no such issues with its design. It can safely glide during total engine loss for quite a long distance. Could the 737 MAX claim the same thing?

At full thrust the nose would point too far upward with the new design, potentially causing a stall. MCAS automatically pushed the nose down if the nose was detected to be pointing too far up. Pilots received a two-hour training course on an iPad before being allowed to fly on the 737 MAX, they didn't even highlight the new MCAS system. The training material didn't even mention the new MCAS software...

The worrying thing about this entire situation is the MCAS system relied on a single AOA (Angle of Attack) sensor and overreacted and took control of the plane. Given planes are known for their levels of redundancy, a single sensor and some overzealous software coupled with other mistakes resulted in hundreds of lives lost. Pilots were not even notified in the cockpit that the MCAS software had taken over control of the plane. How insane is that?

This all happened because Boeing pretended the 737 MAX was basically the same as the 737. The cause of the problems was not because of poor software, it was because Boeing tried to cut costs and put in a bandaid solution for the unstable frame they created. The software did its job, it's the lack of redundancy and ability to manually override the system that was the problem. They're just doubling down on it because there is no alternative to the engineering problem they created.

MCAS = May Crash Any Second

Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by FlyMoreRockets on Thursday December 19, 2019 @10:06PM (#21841432)
Inherently unstable? Where are the CG and CP actually located on the aircraft?
Re:Airplanes and Accounting Games: The Coming Boeing Collapse? by vpribish on Thursday December 19, 2019 @05:58PM (#21840142)
of course it's fixable - be realistic.

It's the more a problem of increasing lift from the forward-mounted engines, not CG. Active control systems are just fine. The airframe is not inherently unstable.

armchair aerospace engineers are the worst.