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Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by aazaa on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @10:22AM (#21825725)
The article links to the original source:

https://freedomonthemove.org

Scrolling down, one sees an ad from none other than Thomas Jefferson:

> In Alberale, a Mulatto slave called Sandy, about 35 years of age, his stature is rather low, including to corpulence, and his complexion light; he is a shoemaker by trade, in which he uses his left hand principally, and is something of a horse jockey; ... Whoever conveys the said slave to me, in Albermarle, shall have 40 s. reward ...

One of the histories of the US that I read mentioned the ridicule that the British heaped on the Americans for their hypocrisy, a copy of the Declaration of Independence in one hand and a whip in the other.

It's striking to consider the self-delusion that must have been necessary for people at the time to believe in such wildly inconsistent notions as "inalienable rights" and slavery.

On the other hand, culture is a powerful reality distortion field. Scratch just a little below the surface and you'll find the most bizarre creatures scuttling for cover.

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Ididntdothis on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @11:03AM (#21826181)
Jefferson’s and Washington’s psychology was certainly very interesting as far as their attitudes towards freedom and slavery went. I wonder how they justified to themselves having slaves while talking about freedom and liberty.

But we do the same today. A lot of us have pretty unsustainable lifestyles as far as the environment goes but we make ourselves feel good (or even superior to others) by adding a little bit of organic food and organic clothing. The hypocrisy gets even more exaggerated when stars promote climate change awareness while flying private jets all over the world and living in 20000 square foot houses.

The interesting thing is that a lot of famous hypocrites still do good. Maybe not with their own lifestyle but by other people being motivated to do better

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @05:24PM (#21830113)
> I wonder how they justified to themselves having slaves while talking about freedom and liberty.

Isn't it pretty clear and straight-forward? It was based on the beliefs (regardless of the degree to which you might think from your perspective that those beliefs accurately represent reality or not) that many people held back then that there are significant racial differences between slaves and people, and the same rules do not apply to white ones as to black ones because they are not the same species, they do not have the same brains/possibilities/rights/etc. Just like they did not grant any freedom to animals or trees.

However much one might disagree with the basic premise of the racist argument, it does not make it a hypocricy freedom-wise. If someone was holding these racist beliefs in this past USA (and many of them did) - they could very well believe in freedom of all people, and at the same time not consider the slaves "people" based on their racist beliefs that there are actual important and significat differences between those races.

Just because someone treats someone else badly doesn't automatically make it a hypocricy, the world is just more complicated than that and there are plenty of examples of violence or exploitation being based on well established logical thought systems or even ethical (from the point of view of the exploiter) beliefs. And this is important because if you want to make a change in a society, you might benefit from understanding how that society actually thinks and what ideology is behind it. Just calling it a hypocricy is not good enough.

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by chillwaves on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:04PM (#21831160)
That explanation would be more credible if Jefferson did not impregnate one of his slaves.

Hypocrisy of deed is not covered up by some fig leaf of convenient belief systems.

Wikipedia says he fathered 6 children with her. Do you honestly believe that he thought dark complexion was some seriously different subhuman race?

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by bobbylarrybobby on Thursday December 19, 2019 @12:43AM (#21832256)
Do you think horses don’t know that donkeys aren’t horses? And yet they can and do create mules. I imagine that’s how Jefferson felt; after all, there is a derogatory term for mixed race people that begins with “mule”.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by NotSammyHagar on Thursday December 19, 2019 @01:16AM (#21832433)
We see exactly this kind of thing today. Think about certain political statements to the effect that "immigrants are horrible people and we should keep them out. if we had more immigration it would be horrible". <today they mean it's bad, not in the past>. "But when my forefathers came here, it was different, we were good people <white you mean?>, our forefathers did all this great stuff. immigrants today are not like that". So it's clear this willful lying to yourself is still going on.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Erlich_Bachman on Thursday December 19, 2019 @02:18AM (#21832716)
Comparing slavery to any critique of immigration (often about illegal immigration!, not any immigration) is surely a stretch. I am sure there is some non-zero number of individuals who think about some races like slaves still, but it is nowhere near the public mainstream.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by greedo on Thursday December 19, 2019 @12:00PM (#21836698)
I have come to the sad conclusion that overestimating the amount of racism is the safest course of thought. It's my obviously anecdotal experience, but I'm continually amazed how many of the people I come in contact with hold racist views.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by jpster on Thursday December 19, 2019 @09:16AM (#21835055)
> there are significant racial differences between slaves and people, and the same rules do not apply to white ones as to black ones because they are not the same species, they do not have the same brains/possibilities/rights/etc. Just like they did not grant any freedom to animals or trees.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that Southern whites, who lived in such close proximity to their slaves, actually believed this. It sounds like convenient bullshit that you would try to tell yourself in order to justify what you are doing. You see these people everyday, you speak to them, you own generations of them, and they raise generations of your own children in your house (mammies). Of course you would see enough to know that they are the same species and every bit as human as you are.

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Erlich_Bachman on Thursday December 19, 2019 @03:48PM (#21839094)
Which is why slavery was abolished in the end. But it doesn't happen in a day.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Ididntdothis on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @05:42PM (#21830241)
Sorry, from whatever I have read so far they knew exactly what they were doing and knew slavery was a terrible thing.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by gdhbcc on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @11:58AM (#21826824)
Probably in much the same way people today cry out about freedom of speech in china, while labeling restrictions on speech at home as acceptable (or not even restrictions at all!)

At the end of the day all of these high minded ideals are just excuses to justify ones own actions and world views.

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by altcognito on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:08PM (#21826916)
Corporations deciding not to carry your message to a large audience and the government sending you to a political gulag do not seem comparable.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by kingkawn on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:56PM (#21827405)
That seeming difference in methodologies of disenfranchisement is where empires are made and broken
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by chillwaves on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:07PM (#21831171)
Do I have a right to go on CNN primetime and rant?

Does CNN have a right to choose who can use their broadcast platform?

Is freedom of association allowed?

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by kingkawn on Thursday December 19, 2019 @11:13AM (#21836176)
You’ve transformed my comment into your favorite straw man.

CNN will not invite you to rant unless you serve a demographic purpose for reaching its audience.

If you associate with the wrong political groups you will be spied on, and your organization will be disrupted intentionally by informants. Yes, in America.

So, as long as you are within the bounds of what the conversation is defined to be you enjoy freedoms, but then what has freedom become if so?

When I said that these distinctions are the determining factors of empires I am saying that these systems function quite similarly, but the distinctions in how they justify themselves are the breathing room where they are successful or fail to convince the population to go along.

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by chillwaves on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:07PM (#21831168)
Which restrictions do you mean? There are very few instances of speech regulated by the government. Mostly threats and incitement of violence.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by claudiawerner on Thursday December 19, 2019 @04:04PM (#21839277)
>Jefferson’s and Washington’s psychology was certainly very interesting as far as their attitudes towards freedom and slavery went. I wonder how they justified to themselves having slaves while talking about freedom and liberty.

The history of liberalism, from J.S. Mill to Jefferson is fraught with hypocrisies and inconsistencies like this[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism:_A_Counter-History

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by mantap on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:08PM (#21828845)
The closest contemporary example is probably Aung San Suu Kyi. Deserving nobel peace prize winner and also literally defending genocide.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by carapace on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:30PM (#21829093)
I remember being blown away by a line from a Civil War document, a letter or diary of a Southern officer, talking about the units of the Northern army made up of Black people. He wrote something like, "If [black people] can be good soldiers that throws into question our whole theory of slavery."

They had a "theory of slavery"... That's what blew me away. This officer wasn't evil, or stupid, he was the product (or even victim) of his culture. They thought slavery benefited the slaves. As insane as that sounds, that was the everyday psychosis of the culture.

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by take_a_breath on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:54PM (#21829336)
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @05:27PM (#21830131)
Well what did you expect to find instead? That they just randomly assigned some people as slaves, that they instated this system throughout the country, without ever thinking about it? Of course there were justifications and theories and established rules etc. Of course these people weren't randomly just evil or stupid - such people do not organize. There is always a system.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by deogeo on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @11:56AM (#21826798)
> It's striking to consider the self-delusion that must have been necessary for people at the time to believe in such wildly inconsistent notions as "inalienable rights" and slavery.

Perhaps they simply viewed one as the goal to strive towards, and the other as the current, unfortunate state of reality. Especially given that they had a civil war not six decades after Jefferson's presidency, and paid a high price in their own blood to secure those rights.

Edit: By 'they', I meant people in general, not specifically Washington and Jefferson.

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Ididntdothis on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:21PM (#21827077)
You can’t let them get away that easily. Jefferson and Washington could have freed their own slaves at any time but chose not to.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by carapace on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:09PM (#21828854)
Washington had a slave batman whom he kept all through the Revolutionary war.

> William "Billy" Lee (1750–1828), also known as Will Lee, was George Washington's personal assistant and the only one of Washington's slaves freed immediately by Washington in his will. Because he served by Washington's side throughout the American Revolutionary War and was sometimes depicted next to Washington in paintings, Lee was one of the most publicized African Americans of his time.

~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lee_(valet)

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by virmundi on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:41PM (#21827846)
Sigh. Washington did free his slaves. Virginia blocked Jefferson from doing so.
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by sfuller808 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:54PM (#21827979)
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by Ididntdothis on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @02:01PM (#21828052)
Washington freed them only after his death and from what I know that didn’t work that well either so a lot of them remained slaves. In what way did Virginia force Jefferson to keep slaves?
Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by jolmg on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @02:45PM (#21828546)
What's with the rewards on that?

> Whoever conveys the said slave to me, in Albemarle, shall have 40 s. reward, if taken up within the county, 4 l. if elsewhere within the colony, and 10 l. if in any other colony ...

Is that "s" for small, "l" for large? small/large what?

Re:A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Unt... by totalZero on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @02:59PM (#21828723)
I'm guessing s is shillings and l is pounds.