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Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by jodrellblank on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:47AM (#21803864)
the markets are at all time highs

Isn't the world economy built on the idea that markets will always go up? Every year should be an all time high, otherwise we're in recession which is (apparently) tragedy to be avoided at all costs, no?

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by PeterisP on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:21AM (#21804155)
Recessions are unpleasant, but it's not considered a tragedy that should be avoided at all costs because they're not really considered as avoidable.

The 'business cycle' of expansion and contraction is obviously visible in history and has reasonable macroeconomic explanations, and it's expected to continue.

People try to predict the timing of it (which is hard because acting on these predictions often alters reality so that they're less likely to come true), and they definitely try to ensure that recessions aren't long and hard and that the economy can recover from them faster, but nobody is saying that they can prevent a recession, and the interventions which can artifically postpone a recession (i.e. postpone a correction of some market) would generally only make the recession much worse when it happens.

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by ImaCake on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:10AM (#21804071)
My problem with "all time highs" and "biggest single day drop" is that, historically, this is true for every latest date. Of course it's an all time high; 2% growth year on year is compound growth on an ever larger pile of capital! Ditto for biggest single day drops, you can't compare raw number drops of a given index today with the 2001 or 2008, there are so many more bits of capital today than 10 years ago.

It is less the assumption that the market always goes up (eventually) and more the lack of mathematical comprehension.

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by ikeboy on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:05AM (#21804039)
No. GDP should always be rising. Markets not necessarily so.

1987 saw a massive market crash with no recession.

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by ineedasername on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:46AM (#21804407)
If GDP is rising, that should mean output, and therefore sales, and therefore value/marketcap should generally be higher as well. Sure, they don't have to, there are scenarios where they won't, but the two should still be closely correlated over any medium term or longer time span.
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by michalu on Monday December 16, 2019 @10:52AM (#21803921)
Yes but in series of "contract" / "expand higher" cycles, and right now we're definitely not in the contraction period.
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by thorwasdfasdf on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:43AM (#21804367)
It's not just that it's at all time highs. PE ratios are also at all time highs: that's the Price to earnings ratio. There's a number of indicators right now that are at all time highs like the Warren buffet ratio (GDP/earnings), all pointing saying this market is really expensive.

This is the most hated bull market ever. None of the experts are buying heavily into this market (it's all stock buybacks that's driving this market up).

So, you can see why everyone is uneasy about these extremely high PE ratios.

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by mypalmike on Monday December 16, 2019 @12:11PM (#21804687)
Which PE ratios are at all time highs? Nasdaq aggregate PE is elevated above median but not at an all time high.
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by mrep on Monday December 16, 2019 @12:06PM (#21804627)
> PE ratios are also at all time highs: that's the Price to earnings ratio

What index are you looking at? SP 500 is at about 23 [0] which while higher than median, is definitely not at all time highs.

[0]: https://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-pe-ratio/table/by-month

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by rootusrootus on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:47AM (#21804417)
Since you mention Warren Buffet, I will say that what makes me most nervous about the market is that collectively everyone seems to be concluding that it's overheated. By the time the hordes figure it out, it's already happened.
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by Clubber on Monday December 16, 2019 @02:40PM (#21806358)
This recession talk seems to be happening suspiciously close to an election year. It's almost as if someone is trying to concoct a self-fulling prophecy.
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by tehlike on Monday December 16, 2019 @08:03PM (#21809448)
This was the case last year too... In 2017 and 18, there was discussions of melt up and then melt down...
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by lotsofpulp on Monday December 16, 2019 @01:33PM (#21805632)
Have the hordes figured it out?
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by tim333 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:21AM (#21810884)
>Isn't the world economy built on the idea that markets will always go up?

Not really. Recessions are where there is less spending and production, not when the stockmarket goes down.

While stockmarkets and property prices and the like to tend to go up and up in nominal terms a lot of that is because of the currency they are denominated in losing value through inflation. If you adjust for that there is much less of an uptrend.

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by AznHisoka on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:05AM (#21804033)
Doesn’t Japan serve as a counter argument?
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by xboxnolifes on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:34AM (#21804264)
No, it just implies Japan is still in a recession.
Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by OnlineGladiator on Monday December 16, 2019 @12:46PM (#21805085)
That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're essentially saying "the markets always rise over time" is a fundamental law that cannot be broken, and counterexamples are clearly just temporary recessions (no matter how long the recession).

When you take the logic to such extremes, it becomes a meaningless statement. It's literally impossible to disprove this assertion if you just ignore the evidence that says it's not true. Japan is absolutely a counterexample.

Re:Travis Kalanick Is Exiting His Uber Holdings Uber Quickly by BurningFrog on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:26AM (#21804192)
The world economy wasn't built. It emerged.